7 ms·

I wonder if Brave (the company) is what Mozilla would look like if Eich ended up being CEO of Mozila. EDIT: Some people took offense, so I am more explicit in

I wonder if Brave (the company) is what Mozilla would look like if Eich ended up being CEO of Mozila. EDIT: Some people took offense, so I am more explicit in my hypothetical here.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
DonHopkins 5y ago
How many times does this need to be repeated? Mozilla didn't fire Brendan Eich. He resigned of his own free will, against the Mozilla board's request that he stay. His own words and the Mozilla FAQ quoted below, I'm not just making this up. Down the following thread, Brendan suggested googling "constructive separation" -- but I'm not sure if he meant for that euphemism to apply to how he left his job at Mozilla, or to how he wanted to cancel and destroy existing happy same sex marriages in California against their consent. All of the google results have to do with marriage, not employment. Brendan, care to clarify? As JavaScript proves, Brendan Eich never really understood the concept of equality: https://dorey.github.io/JavaScript-Equality-Table/ https://dorey.github.io/JavaScript-Equality-Table/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24127716 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24127716 DonHopkins 3 months ago | on: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses ... Eich was not forced out or fired. In fact, just the opposite: the board actually tried to get Eich to stay, but he decided to leave all on his own. Don't try to rewrite history to make an ideological point. It's all very well and unambiguously documented what really happened, and there's no excuse for you spreading that misinformation. https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/04/05/faq-on-ceo-resignation/ https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/04/05/faq-on-ceo-resignat... Q: Was Brendan Eich fired? A: No, Brendan Eich resigned. Brendan himself said: “I have decided to resign as CEO effective April 3rd, and leave Mozilla. Our mission is bigger than any one of us, and under the present circumstances, I cannot be an effective leader. I will be taking time before I decide what to do next.” Brendan Eich also blogged on this topic. Q: Was Brendan Eich asked to resign by the Board? A: No. It was Brendan’s idea to resign, and in fact, once he submitted his resignation, Board members tried to get Brendan to stay at Mozilla in another C-level role. It's a common misconception which is a key part of the narrative that Brendan's Alt-Right Incel GamerGate supporters were doing their best to spread at the time (GamerGate was in full swing when he resigned, and the Alt-Right jumped on the issue at the expense of Mozilla), in order to help Brendan play the victim (instead of respecting Brendan's own victims and co-workers whose marriages he wanted to terminate) and make him a martyr. (Not that I think you're one of them, but they unfortunately succeeded at spreading the misconception that Brendan was fired far and wide, in the service of their cultural war.) Edit: And do you acknowledge that Brendan wanted to cancel many same sex marriages in California? And do you agree or disagree with him that those marriages should have been canceled? Because he got what he paid for, Proposition 8 passed, and those marriages WERE canceled. Which is worse: canceling one job, or thousands of marriages? Edit 2: It's pretty rich that Brendan would claim to be the one suffering from a hostile work environment, when he was the one who wanted to destroy the marriages of his co-workers and users. Was it too much for him to bear facing the dirty looks of his co-workers who he didn't believe deserved the same rights as he enjoyed? Bullies are always playing the victim. Breaking apart other people's marriages sounds more like "destructive separation" to me.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  I didn't say Mozilla fired Eich. The reality is, per your own source, is that Eich was going to be CEO, and he was no longer given that role, so he left. Given that he was already CTO before this debacle, the board trying to get him to stay in another C-suite role is effectively a demotion. You also don't acknowledge that half of Mozilla's board resigned immediately after his appointment to CEO and one board member cited his appointment as explicitly being the reason. No one is going to stay under those circumstances. So his choices were basically stay at Mozilla, whose very own employees were protesting his appointment, or leave. I'm going to stick with "forced out." I find it amusing that Mozilla in your source insists that he wasn't forced out, when their own recounting of the events only leads one to believe he resigned to due the intense organized protests surrounding his appointment. Ultimately you'd have to ask Eich privately to know for sure. All I'll say is that when someone is demoted, they're going to leave. Whether that's CEO or Senior Software Engineer. I don't even agree with Eich's own (former) positions on same-sex marriage, but let's call it what it is, yes? Now, whether or not his forcing out was good, or just, is another matter, and discussion entirely.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- silisili 5y ago
  I'm not trying to rewrite history or pick sides...but... if I remember right wasn't it basically that everyone at Mozilla kept calling him a bigot and saying they wouldn't work there? And rather than argue back and forth, he realized it would be easier to just resign? That's what I remember, at least. It is true he wasn't 'fired', but basically pushed into a wall and told to do something.
  - BrendanEich 5y ago
    No one at Mozilla kept calling me anything. You may be thinking of https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/03/mozilla-employees-to-brendan-eich-step-down/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/03/mozil... None of those people worked for me as then-CEO, they were in the arms-length Mozilla Foundation.
KarlKemp 5y ago
Quite the bullet we dodged. It’s a good example for my pet theory that seemingly irrelevant (for the work) things like homophobia tend to pretty good heuristics for general shiftiness (I had a different word in mind, but autocorrect did a smart thing)
- trompetenaccoun 5y ago
  What was the warning sign with Eich back in the day? Edit: Oh, you meant literally homophobia. Not sure how I'd never heard of him opposing gay marriage. Interesting.
1_player 5y ago
> Some people took offense Frankly it was an interesting observation of yours, but a less charitable view of your comment is that you were subtly trying to start the same idiotic flame thread found at the bottom of any Brave post on this forum. And you did. In case your observation was in good faith, I don't think Mozilla would have gone so deep into crypto and those little unsavoury sponsorships (Binance, etc.) had Eich never left his top spot, and I am positive his governance would have kept Mozilla and Firefox itself in a better place than whatever is happening over there right now. Feels like we're watching the slow death of a beloved tech company that's one of the cornerstones of net neutrality, and I can't see a way out for them without radical changes in direction and management.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  > Frankly it was an interesting observation of yours, but a less charitable view of your comment is that you were subtly trying to start the same idiotic flame thread found at the bottom of any Brave post on this forum. And you did. Nope. I simply stated the facts, not that it really was the point of my comment anyway, hence the edit. > In case your observation was in good faith, I don't think Mozilla would have gone so deep into crypto and those little unsavoury sponsorships (Binance, etc.) had Eich never left his top spot, and I am positive his governance would have kept Mozilla and Firefox itself in a better place than whatever is happening over there right now. It's hard to say. I don't agree with crypto and think it's not really a great way to go, but Mozilla has Google funding - I don't think it's ridiculous to think Mozilla Rewards or equivalent could've been introduced somehow (with or without crypto)
  - BrendanEich 5y ago
    The "without crypto" path would have been a regulated-in-most-regions in-game token, a gift card or existing portable-points system (TAP network), Amazon Prime, or something super-high-friction involving credit card or ACH. There aren't other options AFAIK.

I wonder if Brave (the company) is what Mozilla would look like if Eich ended up being CEO of Mozila. EDIT: Some people took offense, so I am more explicit in my hypothetical here.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

DonHopkins 5y ago

How many times does this need to be repeated? Mozilla didn't fire Brendan Eich. He resigned of his own free will, against the Mozilla board's request that he stay. His own words and the Mozilla FAQ quoted below, I'm not just making this up. Down the following thread, Brendan suggested googling "constructive separation" -- but I'm not sure if he meant for that euphemism to apply to how he left his job at Mozilla, or to how he wanted to cancel and destroy existing happy same sex marriages in California against their consent. All of the google results have to do with marriage, not employment. Brendan, care to clarify? As JavaScript proves, Brendan Eich never really understood the concept of equality: https://dorey.github.io/JavaScript-Equality-Table/ https://dorey.github.io/JavaScript-Equality-Table/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24127716 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24127716 DonHopkins 3 months ago | on: Mozilla lays off 250 employees while it refocuses ... Eich was not forced out or fired. In fact, just the opposite: the board actually tried to get Eich to stay, but he decided to leave all on his own. Don't try to rewrite history to make an ideological point. It's all very well and unambiguously documented what really happened, and there's no excuse for you spreading that misinformation. https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/04/05/faq-on-ceo-resignation/ https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/04/05/faq-on-ceo-resignat... Q: Was Brendan Eich fired? A: No, Brendan Eich resigned. Brendan himself said: “I have decided to resign as CEO effective April 3rd, and leave Mozilla. Our mission is bigger than any one of us, and under the present circumstances, I cannot be an effective leader. I will be taking time before I decide what to do next.” Brendan Eich also blogged on this topic. Q: Was Brendan Eich asked to resign by the Board? A: No. It was Brendan’s idea to resign, and in fact, once he submitted his resignation, Board members tried to get Brendan to stay at Mozilla in another C-level role. It's a common misconception which is a key part of the narrative that Brendan's Alt-Right Incel GamerGate supporters were doing their best to spread at the time (GamerGate was in full swing when he resigned, and the Alt-Right jumped on the issue at the expense of Mozilla), in order to help Brendan play the victim (instead of respecting Brendan's own victims and co-workers whose marriages he wanted to terminate) and make him a martyr. (Not that I think you're one of them, but they unfortunately succeeded at spreading the misconception that Brendan was fired far and wide, in the service of their cultural war.) Edit: And do you acknowledge that Brendan wanted to cancel many same sex marriages in California? And do you agree or disagree with him that those marriages should have been canceled? Because he got what he paid for, Proposition 8 passed, and those marriages WERE canceled. Which is worse: canceling one job, or thousands of marriages? Edit 2: It's pretty rich that Brendan would claim to be the one suffering from a hostile work environment, when he was the one who wanted to destroy the marriages of his co-workers and users. Was it too much for him to bear facing the dirty looks of his co-workers who he didn't believe deserved the same rights as he enjoyed? Bullies are always playing the victim. Breaking apart other people's marriages sounds more like "destructive separation" to me.

endisneigh 5y ago
I didn't say Mozilla fired Eich. The reality is, per your own source, is that Eich was going to be CEO, and he was no longer given that role, so he left. Given that he was already CTO before this debacle, the board trying to get him to stay in another C-suite role is effectively a demotion. You also don't acknowledge that half of Mozilla's board resigned immediately after his appointment to CEO and one board member cited his appointment as explicitly being the reason. No one is going to stay under those circumstances. So his choices were basically stay at Mozilla, whose very own employees were protesting his appointment, or leave. I'm going to stick with "forced out." I find it amusing that Mozilla in your source insists that he wasn't forced out, when their own recounting of the events only leads one to believe he resigned to due the intense organized protests surrounding his appointment. Ultimately you'd have to ask Eich privately to know for sure. All I'll say is that when someone is demoted, they're going to leave. Whether that's CEO or Senior Software Engineer. I don't even agree with Eich's own (former) positions on same-sex marriage, but let's call it what it is, yes? Now, whether or not his forcing out was good, or just, is another matter, and discussion entirely.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
silisili 5y ago
I'm not trying to rewrite history or pick sides...but... if I remember right wasn't it basically that everyone at Mozilla kept calling him a bigot and saying they wouldn't work there? And rather than argue back and forth, he realized it would be easier to just resign? That's what I remember, at least. It is true he wasn't 'fired', but basically pushed into a wall and told to do something.
- BrendanEich 5y ago
  No one at Mozilla kept calling me anything. You may be thinking of https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/03/mozilla-employees-to-brendan-eich-step-down/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/03/mozil... None of those people worked for me as then-CEO, they were in the arms-length Mozilla Foundation.

KarlKemp 5y ago

Quite the bullet we dodged. It’s a good example for my pet theory that seemingly irrelevant (for the work) things like homophobia tend to pretty good heuristics for general shiftiness (I had a different word in mind, but autocorrect did a smart thing)

trompetenaccoun 5y ago
What was the warning sign with Eich back in the day? Edit: Oh, you meant literally homophobia. Not sure how I'd never heard of him opposing gay marriage. Interesting.

1_player 5y ago

> Some people took offense Frankly it was an interesting observation of yours, but a less charitable view of your comment is that you were subtly trying to start the same idiotic flame thread found at the bottom of any Brave post on this forum. And you did. In case your observation was in good faith, I don't think Mozilla would have gone so deep into crypto and those little unsavoury sponsorships (Binance, etc.) had Eich never left his top spot, and I am positive his governance would have kept Mozilla and Firefox itself in a better place than whatever is happening over there right now. Feels like we're watching the slow death of a beloved tech company that's one of the cornerstones of net neutrality, and I can't see a way out for them without radical changes in direction and management.

endisneigh 5y ago
> Frankly it was an interesting observation of yours, but a less charitable view of your comment is that you were subtly trying to start the same idiotic flame thread found at the bottom of any Brave post on this forum. And you did. Nope. I simply stated the facts, not that it really was the point of my comment anyway, hence the edit. > In case your observation was in good faith, I don't think Mozilla would have gone so deep into crypto and those little unsavoury sponsorships (Binance, etc.) had Eich never left his top spot, and I am positive his governance would have kept Mozilla and Firefox itself in a better place than whatever is happening over there right now. It's hard to say. I don't agree with crypto and think it's not really a great way to go, but Mozilla has Google funding - I don't think it's ridiculous to think Mozilla Rewards or equivalent could've been introduced somehow (with or without crypto)
- BrendanEich 5y ago
  The "without crypto" path would have been a regulated-in-most-regions in-game token, a gift card or existing portable-points system (TAP network), Amazon Prime, or something super-high-friction involving credit card or ACH. There aren't other options AFAIK.