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To start a call, there is a requirement that you are 1) Using the Brave Browser 2) Have Brave Rewards (their crypto-and-ads service) turned on. Not loving th

To start a call, there is a requirement that you are 1) Using the Brave Browser 2) Have Brave Rewards (their crypto-and-ads service) turned on. Not loving that. Edit: the first one is fine (although a little strange that it is a requirement here but not for their other products, like Brave Search). I'm irked by the second one.

bool3max 5y ago
I bet you are loving that it's free though.
- nicce 5y ago
  > 2) Have Brave Rewards (their crypto-and-ads service) turned on. There are different definitions for "free".
- open-paren 5y ago
  Free is great, free is what they advertise. However, I don't personally like Brave Rewards because I am not bullish on crypto and I don't think most of BAT goes to creators, because Brave Rewards market usage is really, really small, so it gets used speculatively. My perfect world solution is that they either a) advertise that Brave Rewards is required ("Brave Talk is free, ad-supported), or b) have a payment tier between premium and free that allows me to pay-per-call or something, without the premium features.
- deeblering4 5y ago
  It’s not free, it just doesn't cost any money.
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    I was just about to say this. Brave is the opposite of a free browser, it just so happens to cost nothing to download/use it.
    - BrendanEich 5y ago
      What browser is different in this regard?
      - deeblering4 5y ago
        Mozilla Firefox
        BrendanEich 5y ago
        How exactly (can you give examples) is it different, given its dependence on major search partner (Google at present).
crackercrews 5y ago
Number 1 is to be expected. Number 2 came as a surprise. Doesn't appear to be mentioned anywhere in the launch announcement. I assume someone could turn on Brave Rewards, start a call, and then turn it off later?
- gostsamo 5y ago
  Yes, many dark patterns use similar justifications.
- zakember 5y ago
  Sorry but why is Number 1 to be expected? HN often shows a lot of hate when any Google products like Gmail or Google Meet works well on Chrome, but not on Firefox. Web technologies should be browser independent.
  - rglullis 5y ago
    Would you pay to have a browser-independent version?
    - Barrin92 5y ago
      you don't need to pay anything. They've just repackaged Jitsi into the browser, which is already free https://jitsi.org/jitsi-meet/ https://jitsi.org/jitsi-meet/
      - BrendanEich 5y ago
        See discussion of free lunch elsewhere. https://jitsi.org/meet-jit-si-terms-of-service/ https://jitsi.org/meet-jit-si-terms-of-service/
        BrendanEich 5y ago
        Also see our terms, included in https://brave.com/privacy/browser/ https://brave.com/privacy/browser/ Our terms are better for privacy than 8x8’s, e.g., callstats are disabled in Brave Talk.
bsclifton 5y ago
There is an alternative option 2 available- you can subscribe to Brave Premium for a cost (shows as $7 USD/month). Just wanted to share as I hadn't seen it mentioned here For the no-cost option, enabling Brave Rewards helps Brave to cover the costs of video infrastructure
- schleck8 5y ago
  They appear to be launching additional perks for this premium subscription, like a VPN. I hadn't heard of it until today
mraudiobook_com 5y ago
Why irked? Oh, wait that's right, HN hates cryptocurrency, sorry I forgot.
peakaboo 5y ago
This is the wrong way for them to do it. It must work on all browsers and the they can possibly add features that make people WANT to use Brave, not force them to do it.
- jonathansampson 5y ago
  Brave Talk does work in all major browsers. Initiating a call requires Brave, but participation in a call does not.
  - hundchenkatze 5y ago
    So it works in all major browsers once you redefine "works" - got it.
    - BrendanEich 5y ago
      No, once you start a call, which requires native code for the full offering (N>2, any time and duration). See TANSTAAFL reply above.
      - hundchenkatze 5y ago
        I don't care what kind of code is required for it to actually work. If I can't start a call in a browser other than Brave, then it by definition does _not_ work in every browser. You stating that it requires native code that's not present in other browsers is clear evidence that it doesn't work in all browsers.
        BrendanEich 5y ago
        No one disputed that but I gave reasons why this is so. You can use Gmeet in any modern browser (it breaks more often in non-Chrome browsers IME). Is it better on that basis alone? I think not because TANSTAAFL. Why is Google subsidizing it that way?
BrendanEich 5y ago
The first one is because we have to use native code with our partner for a user hosting a call to create one. After the call is up, any modern browser can be used to join, given the unique link provided by the host. The second one, I addressed directly for all Brave products that have significant fixed and per-user/usage costs, the other week on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/BATProject/comments/pl2lgi/comment/hc9caaj/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/BATProject/comments/pl2lgi/comment/... Quote: "A free browser is a free lunch, and TANSTAAFL. Brave has sponsored images on by default, we don't pretend to be free by selling default search to Google as Firefox does. Privacy-conscious users know that nothing on the Web, no app or service, is free. The salient difference about Brave in this context: we put users first and deal them in for >= the revenue we make on any attention-based revenue where we take the gross. This can't be done with search deals: Google, Bing, and others forbid paying users a share of the revenue that the search partner shares with the browser maker. But we aim to do it when ready with self-serve keywords-at-auction private search ads. Before then, we hope to offer private ads via a partner, but that's not a sure thing. Details if and when we have a deal. That's the free leg of Brave Search. The premium is ad-free search for a small monthly fee (a few dollars, discounted if paid annually). This is necessary because Brave Search has per-user as well as fixed costs, which we must cover with a reasonable margin. I think users understand this. In all cases, Brave Search remains private: no tracking or use of IP even for short-term query-refinement "sessions". But if users won't pay, we will put private-until-and-unless-clicked ads in the free leg. This freemium model goes for Brave News too." End Quote TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch (popularized by Robert A. Heinlein). Hackers here on HN may be able to self-host a Jitsi instance, even build their own browser. Most users cannot. We at Brave aim to provide all users with a truly user-first, privacy-designed+engineered-in-&-on-by-default products to take on Big Tech with its centralized data collection, surveillance based ads, fraud and abuse problems, and monopolistic, user-hostile tendencies. We know TANSTAAFL is true so we don't pretend to offer a free lunch and we don't track users. We will work to add more "buy out my ad inventory" ease of use, including for Rewards as well as News. Those who can't or won't pay can still use Brave as a fast, tracking/fingerprinting-blocking browser. We aim to get enough of you using Rewards to keep our lights on, and we'll have to work on distribution and promotion of search to get it covering its costs (premium ad-free or free private ads leg, you choose). I hope this helps explain what we're trying to achieve, and that you'll give us a try.

bool3max 5y ago

I bet you are loving that it's free though.

nicce 5y ago
> 2) Have Brave Rewards (their crypto-and-ads service) turned on. There are different definitions for "free".
open-paren 5y ago
Free is great, free is what they advertise. However, I don't personally like Brave Rewards because I am not bullish on crypto and I don't think most of BAT goes to creators, because Brave Rewards market usage is really, really small, so it gets used speculatively. My perfect world solution is that they either a) advertise that Brave Rewards is required ("Brave Talk is free, ad-supported), or b) have a payment tier between premium and free that allows me to pay-per-call or something, without the premium features.
deeblering4 5y ago
It’s not free, it just doesn't cost any money.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  I was just about to say this. Brave is the opposite of a free browser, it just so happens to cost nothing to download/use it.
  - BrendanEich 5y ago
    What browser is different in this regard?
    - deeblering4 5y ago
      Mozilla Firefox
      - BrendanEich 5y ago
        How exactly (can you give examples) is it different, given its dependence on major search partner (Google at present).

crackercrews 5y ago

Number 1 is to be expected. Number 2 came as a surprise. Doesn't appear to be mentioned anywhere in the launch announcement. I assume someone could turn on Brave Rewards, start a call, and then turn it off later?

gostsamo 5y ago
Yes, many dark patterns use similar justifications.
zakember 5y ago
Sorry but why is Number 1 to be expected? HN often shows a lot of hate when any Google products like Gmail or Google Meet works well on Chrome, but not on Firefox. Web technologies should be browser independent.
- rglullis 5y ago
  Would you pay to have a browser-independent version?
  - Barrin92 5y ago
    you don't need to pay anything. They've just repackaged Jitsi into the browser, which is already free https://jitsi.org/jitsi-meet/ https://jitsi.org/jitsi-meet/
    - BrendanEich 5y ago
      See discussion of free lunch elsewhere. https://jitsi.org/meet-jit-si-terms-of-service/ https://jitsi.org/meet-jit-si-terms-of-service/
      - BrendanEich 5y ago
        Also see our terms, included in https://brave.com/privacy/browser/ https://brave.com/privacy/browser/ Our terms are better for privacy than 8x8’s, e.g., callstats are disabled in Brave Talk.

bsclifton 5y ago

There is an alternative option 2 available- you can subscribe to Brave Premium for a cost (shows as $7 USD/month). Just wanted to share as I hadn't seen it mentioned here For the no-cost option, enabling Brave Rewards helps Brave to cover the costs of video infrastructure

schleck8 5y ago
They appear to be launching additional perks for this premium subscription, like a VPN. I hadn't heard of it until today

mraudiobook_com 5y ago

Why irked? Oh, wait that's right, HN hates cryptocurrency, sorry I forgot.

peakaboo 5y ago

This is the wrong way for them to do it. It must work on all browsers and the they can possibly add features that make people WANT to use Brave, not force them to do it.

jonathansampson 5y ago
Brave Talk does work in all major browsers. Initiating a call requires Brave, but participation in a call does not.
- hundchenkatze 5y ago
  So it works in all major browsers once you redefine "works" - got it.
  - BrendanEich 5y ago
    No, once you start a call, which requires native code for the full offering (N>2, any time and duration). See TANSTAAFL reply above.
    - hundchenkatze 5y ago
      I don't care what kind of code is required for it to actually work. If I can't start a call in a browser other than Brave, then it by definition does _not_ work in every browser. You stating that it requires native code that's not present in other browsers is clear evidence that it doesn't work in all browsers.
      - BrendanEich 5y ago
        No one disputed that but I gave reasons why this is so. You can use Gmeet in any modern browser (it breaks more often in non-Chrome browsers IME). Is it better on that basis alone? I think not because TANSTAAFL. Why is Google subsidizing it that way?

BrendanEich 5y ago

The first one is because we have to use native code with our partner for a user hosting a call to create one. After the call is up, any modern browser can be used to join, given the unique link provided by the host. The second one, I addressed directly for all Brave products that have significant fixed and per-user/usage costs, the other week on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/BATProject/comments/pl2lgi/comment/hc9caaj/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/BATProject/comments/pl2lgi/comment/... Quote: "A free browser is a free lunch, and TANSTAAFL. Brave has sponsored images on by default, we don't pretend to be free by selling default search to Google as Firefox does. Privacy-conscious users know that nothing on the Web, no app or service, is free. The salient difference about Brave in this context: we put users first and deal them in for >= the revenue we make on any attention-based revenue where we take the gross. This can't be done with search deals: Google, Bing, and others forbid paying users a share of the revenue that the search partner shares with the browser maker. But we aim to do it when ready with self-serve keywords-at-auction private search ads. Before then, we hope to offer private ads via a partner, but that's not a sure thing. Details if and when we have a deal. That's the free leg of Brave Search. The premium is ad-free search for a small monthly fee (a few dollars, discounted if paid annually). This is necessary because Brave Search has per-user as well as fixed costs, which we must cover with a reasonable margin. I think users understand this. In all cases, Brave Search remains private: no tracking or use of IP even for short-term query-refinement "sessions". But if users won't pay, we will put private-until-and-unless-clicked ads in the free leg. This freemium model goes for Brave News too." End Quote TANSTAAFL = There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch (popularized by Robert A. Heinlein). Hackers here on HN may be able to self-host a Jitsi instance, even build their own browser. Most users cannot. We at Brave aim to provide all users with a truly user-first, privacy-designed+engineered-in-&-on-by-default products to take on Big Tech with its centralized data collection, surveillance based ads, fraud and abuse problems, and monopolistic, user-hostile tendencies. We know TANSTAAFL is true so we don't pretend to offer a free lunch and we don't track users. We will work to add more "buy out my ad inventory" ease of use, including for Rewards as well as News. Those who can't or won't pay can still use Brave as a fast, tracking/fingerprinting-blocking browser. We aim to get enough of you using Rewards to keep our lights on, and we'll have to work on distribution and promotion of search to get it covering its costs (premium ad-free or free private ads leg, you choose). I hope this helps explain what we're trying to achieve, and that you'll give us a try.