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>A GUI to you is just constant dialog boxes? No not quite. Usually a dialog is good to use when there is some unavoidable transition that needs input, or when

>A GUI to you is just constant dialog boxes? No not quite. Usually a dialog is good to use when there is some unavoidable transition that needs input, or when you need confirmation for an operation that is irreversible. There are plenty of GUI programs which those apply to. If the operation is truly irreversible then you actually can't do much beyond OK/Cancel, think of some operation like "Empty The Trash". I agree that designers should avoid modal dialogs if at all possible, but in some cases a dialog actually is the best thing to do. The rest of your criticism is referring to outdated or unrelated concepts, or doesn't make sense to me. Drag and drop isn't done on mobile, and the concept of "load and save" is also obsolete there. If you want to load a file you just browse to it in the file browser, and save is supposed to happen transparently and automatically without any user input. Requiring a user to press an unknown hotkey or open some other application to pipe sound into it in order to access the camera is even worse than a dialog, that will guarantee you get bug reports from users saying that the application is broken because they get no sound by default. Even if you had that, you would still want to pop open a dialog informing the user of the hotkey and the need to press it, or you would want to pop open the "GUI composition tool" automatically within a dialog. So it's unavoidable in any case. This is an operation that requires some additional input before the application is going to work. That's exactly what purpose dialogs are supposed to fulfill. Does that explain it better? From my perspective, this space has actually been extensively explored, and dialogs still persist because they are actually useful and convey the information in the most relevant way. If you think the older X11 GUIs are cool, or you like visual programming languages, you might like Arcan, but it's mostly a spin on those concepts built in Lua. That was my experience anyway. I don't think there are any other Lua-based systems like that, that's its uniqueness.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
> If the operation is truly irreversible then you actually can't do much beyond OK/Cancel, think of some operation like "Empty The Trash". I disagree, you can make the operation difficult to perform accidentally. Imagine you had nuclear missile silo, but instead of requiring a code and two people to turn keys at opposite ends of the room, you just had a "really end the world?" prompt. You even see this in UIs pretty frequently now, for instance having to enter the name of the thing you're deleting to confirm. > The rest of your criticism is referring to outdated or unrelated concepts, or doesn't make sense to me. Drag and drop isn't done on mobile, and the concept of "load and save" is also obsolete there. I can see why if you think I was talking about mobile. I'm not, I'm talking about desktop personal computing. > If you want to load a file you just browse to it in the file browser I am not aware of a single mobile OS that comes with a file browser. Instead all applications are siloed and storage is an abstracted black box. Is it on my device? On the SD card? In the cloud? > Requiring a user to press an unknown hotkey or open some other application to pipe sound into it in order to access the camera is even worse than a dialog, that will guarantee you get bug reports from users saying that the application is broken because they get no sound by default. Le sigh... only because that's the expectation they've been trained to have. It doesn't mean it isn't better to do things differently. It's the equivalent of saying "no, we can't make mobile OSs because people will file bug reports when they can't run IE and play Flash games". > Even if you had that, you would still want to pop open a dialog informing the user of the hotkey, or you would want to pop open the "GUI composition tool" automatically within a dialog. Dear god why would I want to do that automatically? Does Office throw up a dialog telling users how to save a file when they first start it up? Or how to copy and paste? No, they're expected to understand some basic concepts of how to use the computing environment they're working in already. Treating all users like illiterate idiots is a practice that continues to prevent us from having nice things.
- BrightGlow 5y ago
  > you can make the operation difficult to perform accidentally Ok but this is just another variation on a dialog. You're describing another dialog that asks you to input a passphrase. >I can see why if you think I was talking about mobile. I'm not, I'm talking about desktop personal computing. I suspect these concepts will make their way to the desktop eventually. Drag and drop is pretty bad for a lot of things because it has poor discoverability. And auto-saving/auto-backup with version control is way more desirable in most situations than having to keep hammering Ctrl+S. >I am not aware of a single mobile OS that comes with a file browser. Well my Android phone has one built in. Here it is on the play store if your build doesn't have it: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.nbu.files https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.and... But even on iOS you would just open the "photos" or "docs" or "music" app or similar and that will let you browse all files of that type and open it in any app that handles it. >Le sigh... only because that's the expectation they've been trained to have. No no, this is not how it is. You have to assume the user has no expectations at all and has no understanding of what the security model is in any way. So you have to explain it to them, if you want to make this fool-proof then you can do it either through some dialogs, or forcing them to go through a tutorial or some other help feature. Just throwing them into an app that isn't functional until you press some unknown buttons outside the app isn't training them. >Dear god why would I want to do that automatically? Does Office throw up a dialog telling users how to save a file when they first start it up? Or how to copy and paste? I haven't used a fresh install in a while but yes, I believe the first thing Office does is pop up a dialog offering help, tips and tutorials. Why wouldn't it? It's a complex program, you wouldn't expect everyone to understand everything about it on first glance. Edit: I just tried to make a new file in a new account in Office 365 and it basically does this exactly, it shows some dialogs explaining that files are stored in the cloud, and how files can be copied and shared to other users. >No, they're expected to understand some basic concepts of how to use the computing environment they're working in already. Treating all users like illiterate idiots is a practice that continues to prevent us from having nice things. Please make sure not to assume that everyone has the same computer knowledge or interest that you and I do. This is a common mistake I see among techies. Unaware users aren't being treated like idiots, it's not their fault they don't understand the way a computer was designed.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago

> If the operation is truly irreversible then you actually can't do much beyond OK/Cancel, think of some operation like "Empty The Trash". I disagree, you can make the operation difficult to perform accidentally. Imagine you had nuclear missile silo, but instead of requiring a code and two people to turn keys at opposite ends of the room, you just had a "really end the world?" prompt. You even see this in UIs pretty frequently now, for instance having to enter the name of the thing you're deleting to confirm. > The rest of your criticism is referring to outdated or unrelated concepts, or doesn't make sense to me. Drag and drop isn't done on mobile, and the concept of "load and save" is also obsolete there. I can see why if you think I was talking about mobile. I'm not, I'm talking about desktop personal computing. > If you want to load a file you just browse to it in the file browser I am not aware of a single mobile OS that comes with a file browser. Instead all applications are siloed and storage is an abstracted black box. Is it on my device? On the SD card? In the cloud? > Requiring a user to press an unknown hotkey or open some other application to pipe sound into it in order to access the camera is even worse than a dialog, that will guarantee you get bug reports from users saying that the application is broken because they get no sound by default. Le sigh... only because that's the expectation they've been trained to have. It doesn't mean it isn't better to do things differently. It's the equivalent of saying "no, we can't make mobile OSs because people will file bug reports when they can't run IE and play Flash games". > Even if you had that, you would still want to pop open a dialog informing the user of the hotkey, or you would want to pop open the "GUI composition tool" automatically within a dialog. Dear god why would I want to do that automatically? Does Office throw up a dialog telling users how to save a file when they first start it up? Or how to copy and paste? No, they're expected to understand some basic concepts of how to use the computing environment they're working in already. Treating all users like illiterate idiots is a practice that continues to prevent us from having nice things.

BrightGlow 5y ago
> you can make the operation difficult to perform accidentally Ok but this is just another variation on a dialog. You're describing another dialog that asks you to input a passphrase. >I can see why if you think I was talking about mobile. I'm not, I'm talking about desktop personal computing. I suspect these concepts will make their way to the desktop eventually. Drag and drop is pretty bad for a lot of things because it has poor discoverability. And auto-saving/auto-backup with version control is way more desirable in most situations than having to keep hammering Ctrl+S. >I am not aware of a single mobile OS that comes with a file browser. Well my Android phone has one built in. Here it is on the play store if your build doesn't have it: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.nbu.files https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.and... But even on iOS you would just open the "photos" or "docs" or "music" app or similar and that will let you browse all files of that type and open it in any app that handles it. >Le sigh... only because that's the expectation they've been trained to have. No no, this is not how it is. You have to assume the user has no expectations at all and has no understanding of what the security model is in any way. So you have to explain it to them, if you want to make this fool-proof then you can do it either through some dialogs, or forcing them to go through a tutorial or some other help feature. Just throwing them into an app that isn't functional until you press some unknown buttons outside the app isn't training them. >Dear god why would I want to do that automatically? Does Office throw up a dialog telling users how to save a file when they first start it up? Or how to copy and paste? I haven't used a fresh install in a while but yes, I believe the first thing Office does is pop up a dialog offering help, tips and tutorials. Why wouldn't it? It's a complex program, you wouldn't expect everyone to understand everything about it on first glance. Edit: I just tried to make a new file in a new account in Office 365 and it basically does this exactly, it shows some dialogs explaining that files are stored in the cloud, and how files can be copied and shared to other users. >No, they're expected to understand some basic concepts of how to use the computing environment they're working in already. Treating all users like illiterate idiots is a practice that continues to prevent us from having nice things. Please make sure not to assume that everyone has the same computer knowledge or interest that you and I do. This is a common mistake I see among techies. Unaware users aren't being treated like idiots, it's not their fault they don't understand the way a computer was designed.