4 ms·

I hate to say this, but OSS anarchism is not going to work. Most people cannot really work or live with those devices. This is a problem that needs to be solve

I hate to say this, but OSS anarchism is not going to work. Most people cannot really work or live with those devices. This is a problem that needs to be solved with legislation, lobbying, superPACs, and candidates who are not ethically flexible. The solution to bad government is not "no government" and the solution to bad company behavior is better rules.

reginold 5y ago
Open to other ways of taking action. What are you doing to support the solutions you describe?
ignoramous 5y ago
> I hate to say this, but OSS anarchism is not going to work. Most people cannot really work or live with those devices. Baby steps. Such changes start small. > This is a problem that needs to be solved with legislation, lobbying, superPACs, and candidates who are not ethically flexible. Yes, but regulations do also ring-in different challenges and over the long-term, the status-quo ends up being enshrined in them, thwarting the otherwise thriving diversity of the ecosystem. Though, it is inevitable Internet / Web gets regulated ala Finance / Telecommunications industries.
tombert 5y ago
I don't disagree at all with what you're saying, but shouldn't we still what little we can? Even if it's incremental, doesn't it at least send a tiny signal to manufacturers and companies and government if they see an increase in the demand of open hardware and open-source software? The end solution will definitely require something more systemic, no question, but I don't think that should stopping the common person from doing what what they can. I bought an iPhone less than a year ago (to use up a discount code before I left Apple), but a part of me already regrets not biting the bullet and purchasing something open, like a PinePhone.
systemvoltage 5y ago
This is the correct answer. Legislation and outright bans of products that require any sort of internet connection to work. Furthermore, legislation that explicitly prevents gathering of any data, user account or coercion to use the product in any way without explicit consent of the user. OSS is not going to cut the mustard.
titzer 5y ago
We need both. First, Stallman was right. We simply cannot trust the magic incantations (code) of closed-source software and hardware to respect laws, in spirit or in letter. We must be able to audit all devices at every level. Second, the EFF is right, too. They fight at the legislative level. But they are fighting a defensive game. Consumers need to go on the offensive and lobby for legislatures to pass a digital Bill of Rights.
bobthechef 5y ago
Certainly, legislation would be enormously helpful, but legislation isn't incantation. Economic factors are real. Western countries need to rebuild their domestic manufacturing bases. There is no other way to guarantee that production will respect ethical norms and no other way to realistically punish violations. Legislation must incrementally direct industry back to the West and provide conditions under which it can flourish. This is easier said than done which is why any temptation to outsource ought to be VERY carefully considered because once you outsource industry, not only do you destroy the industrial base and mutually beneficial complex relationships, but you also starve domestic expertise and competence and the culture of that industry. Industry is a culture and culture is only transmitted when it is living, when there is a society of people who communicate and share and contribute and make use of it. If you ship textile manufacturing abroad, your domestic textile culture atrophies and withers. I think people underestimate this. It's not just a matter of willing something. You don't just say "well, all we need to do is build a factory for making X". Yeah? Who knows how to build that factory and to make X, and make it well so that it is competitive? Not you. Western cultures have forgotten how to make certain things. It's like trying to go into the pyramid building business by just wanting to do it or by looking over some old papyrus. Yeah, sure, you have to start somewhere, and do start, but don't expect it to be easy. Decentralizing production is also better for security by removing unnecessary dependence. You want production to be distributed. You do not want one guy to make all of X. And placing your bets on Chinese reform or political pressure on China to "be nice" is so ludicrous that I won't waste my proverbial breath. I will only say that the vast imperial ambitions of China are not only obvious, but that the elites of our own countries have taken a liking to their methods. The recent self-hatred of Westerners creates a vacuum, and Chinese ideas seem poised to fill it.

reginold 5y ago

Open to other ways of taking action. What are you doing to support the solutions you describe?

ignoramous 5y ago

> I hate to say this, but OSS anarchism is not going to work. Most people cannot really work or live with those devices. Baby steps. Such changes start small. > This is a problem that needs to be solved with legislation, lobbying, superPACs, and candidates who are not ethically flexible. Yes, but regulations do also ring-in different challenges and over the long-term, the status-quo ends up being enshrined in them, thwarting the otherwise thriving diversity of the ecosystem. Though, it is inevitable Internet / Web gets regulated ala Finance / Telecommunications industries.

tombert 5y ago

I don't disagree at all with what you're saying, but shouldn't we still what little we can? Even if it's incremental, doesn't it at least send a tiny signal to manufacturers and companies and government if they see an increase in the demand of open hardware and open-source software? The end solution will definitely require something more systemic, no question, but I don't think that should stopping the common person from doing what what they can. I bought an iPhone less than a year ago (to use up a discount code before I left Apple), but a part of me already regrets not biting the bullet and purchasing something open, like a PinePhone.

systemvoltage 5y ago

This is the correct answer. Legislation and outright bans of products that require any sort of internet connection to work. Furthermore, legislation that explicitly prevents gathering of any data, user account or coercion to use the product in any way without explicit consent of the user. OSS is not going to cut the mustard.

titzer 5y ago

We need both. First, Stallman was right. We simply cannot trust the magic incantations (code) of closed-source software and hardware to respect laws, in spirit or in letter. We must be able to audit all devices at every level. Second, the EFF is right, too. They fight at the legislative level. But they are fighting a defensive game. Consumers need to go on the offensive and lobby for legislatures to pass a digital Bill of Rights.

bobthechef 5y ago

Certainly, legislation would be enormously helpful, but legislation isn't incantation. Economic factors are real. Western countries need to rebuild their domestic manufacturing bases. There is no other way to guarantee that production will respect ethical norms and no other way to realistically punish violations. Legislation must incrementally direct industry back to the West and provide conditions under which it can flourish. This is easier said than done which is why any temptation to outsource ought to be VERY carefully considered because once you outsource industry, not only do you destroy the industrial base and mutually beneficial complex relationships, but you also starve domestic expertise and competence and the culture of that industry. Industry is a culture and culture is only transmitted when it is living, when there is a society of people who communicate and share and contribute and make use of it. If you ship textile manufacturing abroad, your domestic textile culture atrophies and withers. I think people underestimate this. It's not just a matter of willing something. You don't just say "well, all we need to do is build a factory for making X". Yeah? Who knows how to build that factory and to make X, and make it well so that it is competitive? Not you. Western cultures have forgotten how to make certain things. It's like trying to go into the pyramid building business by just wanting to do it or by looking over some old papyrus. Yeah, sure, you have to start somewhere, and do start, but don't expect it to be easy. Decentralizing production is also better for security by removing unnecessary dependence. You want production to be distributed. You do not want one guy to make all of X. And placing your bets on Chinese reform or political pressure on China to "be nice" is so ludicrous that I won't waste my proverbial breath. I will only say that the vast imperial ambitions of China are not only obvious, but that the elites of our own countries have taken a liking to their methods. The recent self-hatred of Westerners creates a vacuum, and Chinese ideas seem poised to fill it.