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You are more powerful than you may realize. Work on supporting open source hardware and software options. 1. If you are a developer, consider buying a Pinephon

You are more powerful than you may realize. Work on supporting open source hardware and software options. 1. If you are a developer, consider buying a Pinephone [1] and contributing to the codebase. 2. If not a developer, you can submit bug reports and test fixes. Same for Purism Librem phone as well [2]. 3. If you are neither, or have no time to spare but do have money, you can always purchase one for kicks or donate to open source like Ubuntu. 4. Finally if you have no time or money, simply upvoting privacy related threads on HN and talking with your friends about it helps too. [1] https://pine64.com/product/pinephone-beta-edition-with-convergence-package/ https://pine64.com/product/pinephone-beta-edition-with-conve... [2] https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/ https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/ edit: added numbering

abakker 5y ago
I hate to say this, but OSS anarchism is not going to work. Most people cannot really work or live with those devices. This is a problem that needs to be solved with legislation, lobbying, superPACs, and candidates who are not ethically flexible. The solution to bad government is not "no government" and the solution to bad company behavior is better rules.
- reginold 5y ago
  Open to other ways of taking action. What are you doing to support the solutions you describe?
- ignoramous 5y ago
  > I hate to say this, but OSS anarchism is not going to work. Most people cannot really work or live with those devices. Baby steps. Such changes start small. > This is a problem that needs to be solved with legislation, lobbying, superPACs, and candidates who are not ethically flexible. Yes, but regulations do also ring-in different challenges and over the long-term, the status-quo ends up being enshrined in them, thwarting the otherwise thriving diversity of the ecosystem. Though, it is inevitable Internet / Web gets regulated ala Finance / Telecommunications industries.
- tombert 5y ago
  I don't disagree at all with what you're saying, but shouldn't we still what little we can? Even if it's incremental, doesn't it at least send a tiny signal to manufacturers and companies and government if they see an increase in the demand of open hardware and open-source software? The end solution will definitely require something more systemic, no question, but I don't think that should stopping the common person from doing what what they can. I bought an iPhone less than a year ago (to use up a discount code before I left Apple), but a part of me already regrets not biting the bullet and purchasing something open, like a PinePhone.
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  This is the correct answer. Legislation and outright bans of products that require any sort of internet connection to work. Furthermore, legislation that explicitly prevents gathering of any data, user account or coercion to use the product in any way without explicit consent of the user. OSS is not going to cut the mustard.
- titzer 5y ago
  We need both. First, Stallman was right. We simply cannot trust the magic incantations (code) of closed-source software and hardware to respect laws, in spirit or in letter. We must be able to audit all devices at every level. Second, the EFF is right, too. They fight at the legislative level. But they are fighting a defensive game. Consumers need to go on the offensive and lobby for legislatures to pass a digital Bill of Rights.
- bobthechef 5y ago
  Certainly, legislation would be enormously helpful, but legislation isn't incantation. Economic factors are real. Western countries need to rebuild their domestic manufacturing bases. There is no other way to guarantee that production will respect ethical norms and no other way to realistically punish violations. Legislation must incrementally direct industry back to the West and provide conditions under which it can flourish. This is easier said than done which is why any temptation to outsource ought to be VERY carefully considered because once you outsource industry, not only do you destroy the industrial base and mutually beneficial complex relationships, but you also starve domestic expertise and competence and the culture of that industry. Industry is a culture and culture is only transmitted when it is living, when there is a society of people who communicate and share and contribute and make use of it. If you ship textile manufacturing abroad, your domestic textile culture atrophies and withers. I think people underestimate this. It's not just a matter of willing something. You don't just say "well, all we need to do is build a factory for making X". Yeah? Who knows how to build that factory and to make X, and make it well so that it is competitive? Not you. Western cultures have forgotten how to make certain things. It's like trying to go into the pyramid building business by just wanting to do it or by looking over some old papyrus. Yeah, sure, you have to start somewhere, and do start, but don't expect it to be easy. Decentralizing production is also better for security by removing unnecessary dependence. You want production to be distributed. You do not want one guy to make all of X. And placing your bets on Chinese reform or political pressure on China to "be nice" is so ludicrous that I won't waste my proverbial breath. I will only say that the vast imperial ambitions of China are not only obvious, but that the elites of our own countries have taken a liking to their methods. The recent self-hatred of Westerners creates a vacuum, and Chinese ideas seem poised to fill it.
vbezhenar 5y ago
Technically capable person can easily protect himself. It's not that hard. At least from ordinary threats. Use dedicated firewall device, use software firewalls, periodically check out running services. Issue is with rest 99.9% of people who will share whatever you say, because their phone happened to be nearby and you can't really do anything about it.
xvilka 5y ago
Biggest missing piece in all these "free" phones is giant (bigger than Linux kernel) baseband firmware blob. Until we have something like Osmocom but for LTE, LTE-A, 5G, etc, all this is pointless.
- ronsor 5y ago
  > something like Osmocom but for LTE, LTE-A, 5G, etc We already do. SrsRAN[1] UE and OpenAirInterface. [1] https://www.srslte.com/ https://www.srslte.com/
  - xvilka 5y ago
    Not the same. It's only for use in computers with SDR hardware attached AFAIK. Nothing ready to flash into the phone firmware and just use it like OsmocomBB allowed with these Motorola phones.

abakker 5y ago

I hate to say this, but OSS anarchism is not going to work. Most people cannot really work or live with those devices. This is a problem that needs to be solved with legislation, lobbying, superPACs, and candidates who are not ethically flexible. The solution to bad government is not "no government" and the solution to bad company behavior is better rules.

reginold 5y ago
Open to other ways of taking action. What are you doing to support the solutions you describe?
ignoramous 5y ago
> I hate to say this, but OSS anarchism is not going to work. Most people cannot really work or live with those devices. Baby steps. Such changes start small. > This is a problem that needs to be solved with legislation, lobbying, superPACs, and candidates who are not ethically flexible. Yes, but regulations do also ring-in different challenges and over the long-term, the status-quo ends up being enshrined in them, thwarting the otherwise thriving diversity of the ecosystem. Though, it is inevitable Internet / Web gets regulated ala Finance / Telecommunications industries.
tombert 5y ago
I don't disagree at all with what you're saying, but shouldn't we still what little we can? Even if it's incremental, doesn't it at least send a tiny signal to manufacturers and companies and government if they see an increase in the demand of open hardware and open-source software? The end solution will definitely require something more systemic, no question, but I don't think that should stopping the common person from doing what what they can. I bought an iPhone less than a year ago (to use up a discount code before I left Apple), but a part of me already regrets not biting the bullet and purchasing something open, like a PinePhone.
systemvoltage 5y ago
This is the correct answer. Legislation and outright bans of products that require any sort of internet connection to work. Furthermore, legislation that explicitly prevents gathering of any data, user account or coercion to use the product in any way without explicit consent of the user. OSS is not going to cut the mustard.
titzer 5y ago
We need both. First, Stallman was right. We simply cannot trust the magic incantations (code) of closed-source software and hardware to respect laws, in spirit or in letter. We must be able to audit all devices at every level. Second, the EFF is right, too. They fight at the legislative level. But they are fighting a defensive game. Consumers need to go on the offensive and lobby for legislatures to pass a digital Bill of Rights.
bobthechef 5y ago
Certainly, legislation would be enormously helpful, but legislation isn't incantation. Economic factors are real. Western countries need to rebuild their domestic manufacturing bases. There is no other way to guarantee that production will respect ethical norms and no other way to realistically punish violations. Legislation must incrementally direct industry back to the West and provide conditions under which it can flourish. This is easier said than done which is why any temptation to outsource ought to be VERY carefully considered because once you outsource industry, not only do you destroy the industrial base and mutually beneficial complex relationships, but you also starve domestic expertise and competence and the culture of that industry. Industry is a culture and culture is only transmitted when it is living, when there is a society of people who communicate and share and contribute and make use of it. If you ship textile manufacturing abroad, your domestic textile culture atrophies and withers. I think people underestimate this. It's not just a matter of willing something. You don't just say "well, all we need to do is build a factory for making X". Yeah? Who knows how to build that factory and to make X, and make it well so that it is competitive? Not you. Western cultures have forgotten how to make certain things. It's like trying to go into the pyramid building business by just wanting to do it or by looking over some old papyrus. Yeah, sure, you have to start somewhere, and do start, but don't expect it to be easy. Decentralizing production is also better for security by removing unnecessary dependence. You want production to be distributed. You do not want one guy to make all of X. And placing your bets on Chinese reform or political pressure on China to "be nice" is so ludicrous that I won't waste my proverbial breath. I will only say that the vast imperial ambitions of China are not only obvious, but that the elites of our own countries have taken a liking to their methods. The recent self-hatred of Westerners creates a vacuum, and Chinese ideas seem poised to fill it.

vbezhenar 5y ago

Technically capable person can easily protect himself. It's not that hard. At least from ordinary threats. Use dedicated firewall device, use software firewalls, periodically check out running services. Issue is with rest 99.9% of people who will share whatever you say, because their phone happened to be nearby and you can't really do anything about it.

xvilka 5y ago

Biggest missing piece in all these "free" phones is giant (bigger than Linux kernel) baseband firmware blob. Until we have something like Osmocom but for LTE, LTE-A, 5G, etc, all this is pointless.

ronsor 5y ago
> something like Osmocom but for LTE, LTE-A, 5G, etc We already do. SrsRAN[1] UE and OpenAirInterface. [1] https://www.srslte.com/ https://www.srslte.com/
- xvilka 5y ago
  Not the same. It's only for use in computers with SDR hardware attached AFAIK. Nothing ready to flash into the phone firmware and just use it like OsmocomBB allowed with these Motorola phones.