7 ms·

People are literally taking horse formulations of ivermectin because doctors are rightfully refusing to prescribe ivermectin for an off label and ineffective us

People are literally taking horse formulations of ivermectin because doctors are rightfully refusing to prescribe ivermectin for an off label and ineffective use. Oh, and the access to this medicine is “marginalized” BECAUSE IT DOESNT WORK TO TREAT COVID. We generally do not expect doctors to prescribe medicine that will not work or is not appropriate for the patients condition. Complaining about their access being marginalized is like complaining that my doctor is marginalizing my access to Ketamine because I don’t need it. It’s not “corruption” to point that out.

rory 5y ago
Although it has more dangers than ivermectin, why shouldn't you have access to ketamine if you feel it helps you? A lot of people believe it has off-label benefits for their mental health, and maybe it does. Perhaps we just have different general perspectives on the individual and society.
- dionian 5y ago
  I suspect most people would disagree, and I think I might too, but it's curious to examine the arguments and justifications for disagreeing
- shapefrog 5y ago
  Why not all drugs of all types. Why call it an opiod crisis and not just here is what happens when you give everyone whatever drugs they hear on the internet make you feel good? First you deny someone ivermectin, next minute you are saying only 1 oxycotin with your beer.
  - rory 5y ago
    The important difference between these drugs is that opiates are incredibly addictive, while ketamine is less addictive than tobacco or alcohol. Ivermectin isn't addictive at all. Ironically, the opioid crisis is caused far more by people's trust in mainstream medicine than by any internet fad.
    - shapefrog 5y ago
      > people's trust in mainstream medicine Mainstream medicine says it is incredibly addictive with an incredibly low lethal dose. People like to get high, a lot. Probably second only to triggering the libs / whatever the lib version is.
      - rory 5y ago
        > In the late 1990s, pharmaceutical companies reassured the medical community that patients would not become addicted to opioid pain relievers and healthcare providers began to prescribe them at greater rates. > Increased prescription of opioid medications led to widespread misuse of both prescription and non-prescription opioids before it became clear that these medications could indeed be highly addictive. I assumed this was well-known. https://www.hhs.gov/opioids/about-the-epidemic/index.html https://www.hhs.gov/opioids/about-the-epidemic/index.html
        shapefrog 5y ago
        > The Opium Wars were two wars waged between the Qing dynasty and Western powers in the mid-19th century. I assumed this was well-known.
    - cmrdporcupine 5y ago
      Repeated recreational use of ketamine over years can lead to permanent urinary tract damage, potentially leading to incontinence, etc. "Ketamine bladder syndrome" https://www.nursingtimes.net/clinical-archive/medicine-management/addressing-ketamine-bladder-syndrome-19-06-2011/ https://www.nursingtimes.net/clinical-archive/medicine-manag...
      - rory 5y ago
        Correct, as I mentioned up-thread ketamine use has dangers.
brandonmenc 5y ago
> People are literally taking horse formulations of ivermectin People are taking the horse formulation because most pharmacists won't even fill an off-label prescription for the drug, which - even if it has no effect on COVID - is safe and taken by a quarter billion people every year. Let people take it. It's not harmful. Or, make a big huge deal about people taking it and, well, then it becomes a big huge deal.
- vernie 5y ago
  Is that really the reason or is it that they can't get a doctor to write them an off-label prescription?
  - brandonmenc 5y ago
    It's probably both, but why would a doctor risk losing their license over this? Yet another unintended consequence. Doctors are supposed to be able to write prescriptions for off-label use.
    - sgt101 5y ago
      If they have reason to believe that it's beneficial. If they don't then they are being reckless.
  - cableshaft 5y ago
    A friend of mine found a doctor to prescribe it but his pharmacy won't fill it. He is so pissed. He was only planning to take small doses here or there as he's a teacher and around sick kids all the time, as if it were like Zinc to hopefully help reduce the severity of Covid-19 if he does get it, but despite going through the effort and succeeding in finding a doctor willing to prescribe it (and my friend even signed a document saying he understands it's an experimental treatment and will assume any risks), his local CVS is refusing to fill it. My opinion is if you can get a proper doctor to prescribe it (by proper doctor I mean none of this "I got a medical exemption for wearing a mask from my Chiropractor" bullshit like is going on in Florida), a pharmacy shouldn't be allowed to decide not to fill it, as if they know better than your doctor.
buu700 5y ago
In fairness, I see no reason why anyone should be blocked from buying any drug they want, whether it be ivermectin or heroin. The consequence of this restriction is that a subset of the prospective customers will settle for a potentially (more) dangerous alternative source, whether that be horse formulations or black market heroin cut with fentanyl. It's also a valid point that unproven and disproven aren't equivalent. While I don't think anyone should take medical advice from political sources or for political reasons (therefore, as far as I'm aware, the well studied vaccines should be preferred to ivermectin by the vast majority of people at this time), I do think that it should be anyone's right to have full bodily autonomy and make whatever choices they want. Mainstream consensus is wrong often enough, e.g. the disastrous food pyramid that contributed to today's obesity epidemic. I agree with the thrust of your point that the idea that there's some kind of widespread anti-Republican medical discrimination or corruption going on is silly. Just pointing out that how things currently are is not how they ought to be, and that this situation is arguably just a subset of the widely reviled War on Drugs.
- rory 5y ago
  (As the GP) I really appreciate and generally agree with your perspective, but: > the idea that there's some kind of widespread anti-Republican medical discrimination or corruption going on is a total mischaracterization of what I was saying. In fact, it's essentially pulled from thin air. The corruption of the news media is in their choice to mock and literally laugh at people sick from veterinary iver because kicking the out-group is popular with their audience (read $$). They do this instead of explaining (in a meaningful way) how we got here, and what steps we can take to make the situation better.
  - buu700 5y ago
    is a total mischaracterization of what I was saying. In fact, it's essentially pulled from thin air. You did refer to "marginalization" of (Republicans') access to medicine. It was unclear whether you were only referring to the effect of well established federal drug policy and standards of the medical industry or a more specific/deliberate marginalization effort. The corruption of the news media is in their choice to mock and literally laugh [...] Ah, well I'm not aware of that, but that may be because I typically rely more on text-based media than video.
abxnlk 5y ago
First of all, trying out random substances or applying existing medicines to different illnesses is exactly how doctors and the pharma industry operate. It's not like doctors actually always understand what is going on; for example, I think even the precise mechanism of anesthetics isn't well understood yet. So people volunteer to test a human approved drug for a different application. I don't believe in Ivermectin specifically, but there's nothing fundamentally wrong with that. It's what medicine does, and most researchers at universities don't have a clue either (as we now see in the entire Covid19 comedy).
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  > First of all, trying out random substances or applying existing medicines to different illnesses is exactly how doctors and the pharma industry operate. Sure, but with methodology and metrics to allow the separation of actual effects from placebo, and in some cases even just enough methodology to be able to measure anything at all.
xdennis 5y ago
In some countries they give free needles to heroin addicts. Why do they care about harm there but for ivermectin they "force" the misinformed people to take the horse paste form?
- JohnWhigham 5y ago
  Because half the country and the mainstream media would rather revel in laughter at those people than help them. They rationalize it as them being too dumb to take the vaccine instead of probing why exactly people are so distrustful of massive conglomerates that can't be held responsible in any way for any side effects their products may cause. The culture wars have fucked this country hard.
aantix 5y ago
What am I missing? https://ivmmeta.com/#rct https://ivmmeta.com/#rct Evaluation of Ivermectin as a Potential Treatment for Mild to Moderate COVID-19: A Double-BlindRandomized Placebo Controlled Trial in Eastern India https://journals.library.ualberta.ca/jpps/index.php/JPPS/article/view/32105/21639 https://journals.library.ualberta.ca/jpps/index.php/JPPS/art... Ivermectin in combination with doxycycline for treating COVID-19 symptoms: a randomized trial https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/03000605211013550 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/030006052110135... Ivermectin shows clinical benefits in mild to moderate COVID19: a randomized controlled double-blind, dose-response study in Lagos https://academic.oup.com/qjmed/advance-article/doi/10.1093/qjmed/hcab035/6143037 https://academic.oup.com/qjmed/advance-article/doi/10.1093/q...

rory 5y ago

Although it has more dangers than ivermectin, why shouldn't you have access to ketamine if you feel it helps you? A lot of people believe it has off-label benefits for their mental health, and maybe it does. Perhaps we just have different general perspectives on the individual and society.

dionian 5y ago
I suspect most people would disagree, and I think I might too, but it's curious to examine the arguments and justifications for disagreeing
shapefrog 5y ago
Why not all drugs of all types. Why call it an opiod crisis and not just here is what happens when you give everyone whatever drugs they hear on the internet make you feel good? First you deny someone ivermectin, next minute you are saying only 1 oxycotin with your beer.
- rory 5y ago
  The important difference between these drugs is that opiates are incredibly addictive, while ketamine is less addictive than tobacco or alcohol. Ivermectin isn't addictive at all. Ironically, the opioid crisis is caused far more by people's trust in mainstream medicine than by any internet fad.
  - shapefrog 5y ago
    > people's trust in mainstream medicine Mainstream medicine says it is incredibly addictive with an incredibly low lethal dose. People like to get high, a lot. Probably second only to triggering the libs / whatever the lib version is.
    - rory 5y ago
      > In the late 1990s, pharmaceutical companies reassured the medical community that patients would not become addicted to opioid pain relievers and healthcare providers began to prescribe them at greater rates. > Increased prescription of opioid medications led to widespread misuse of both prescription and non-prescription opioids before it became clear that these medications could indeed be highly addictive. I assumed this was well-known. https://www.hhs.gov/opioids/about-the-epidemic/index.html https://www.hhs.gov/opioids/about-the-epidemic/index.html
      - shapefrog 5y ago
        > The Opium Wars were two wars waged between the Qing dynasty and Western powers in the mid-19th century. I assumed this was well-known.
  - cmrdporcupine 5y ago
    Repeated recreational use of ketamine over years can lead to permanent urinary tract damage, potentially leading to incontinence, etc. "Ketamine bladder syndrome" https://www.nursingtimes.net/clinical-archive/medicine-management/addressing-ketamine-bladder-syndrome-19-06-2011/ https://www.nursingtimes.net/clinical-archive/medicine-manag...
    - rory 5y ago
      Correct, as I mentioned up-thread ketamine use has dangers.

brandonmenc 5y ago

> People are literally taking horse formulations of ivermectin People are taking the horse formulation because most pharmacists won't even fill an off-label prescription for the drug, which - even if it has no effect on COVID - is safe and taken by a quarter billion people every year. Let people take it. It's not harmful. Or, make a big huge deal about people taking it and, well, then it becomes a big huge deal.

vernie 5y ago
Is that really the reason or is it that they can't get a doctor to write them an off-label prescription?
- brandonmenc 5y ago
  It's probably both, but why would a doctor risk losing their license over this? Yet another unintended consequence. Doctors are supposed to be able to write prescriptions for off-label use.
  - sgt101 5y ago
    If they have reason to believe that it's beneficial. If they don't then they are being reckless.
- cableshaft 5y ago
  A friend of mine found a doctor to prescribe it but his pharmacy won't fill it. He is so pissed. He was only planning to take small doses here or there as he's a teacher and around sick kids all the time, as if it were like Zinc to hopefully help reduce the severity of Covid-19 if he does get it, but despite going through the effort and succeeding in finding a doctor willing to prescribe it (and my friend even signed a document saying he understands it's an experimental treatment and will assume any risks), his local CVS is refusing to fill it. My opinion is if you can get a proper doctor to prescribe it (by proper doctor I mean none of this "I got a medical exemption for wearing a mask from my Chiropractor" bullshit like is going on in Florida), a pharmacy shouldn't be allowed to decide not to fill it, as if they know better than your doctor.

buu700 5y ago

In fairness, I see no reason why anyone should be blocked from buying any drug they want, whether it be ivermectin or heroin. The consequence of this restriction is that a subset of the prospective customers will settle for a potentially (more) dangerous alternative source, whether that be horse formulations or black market heroin cut with fentanyl. It's also a valid point that unproven and disproven aren't equivalent. While I don't think anyone should take medical advice from political sources or for political reasons (therefore, as far as I'm aware, the well studied vaccines should be preferred to ivermectin by the vast majority of people at this time), I do think that it should be anyone's right to have full bodily autonomy and make whatever choices they want. Mainstream consensus is wrong often enough, e.g. the disastrous food pyramid that contributed to today's obesity epidemic. I agree with the thrust of your point that the idea that there's some kind of widespread anti-Republican medical discrimination or corruption going on is silly. Just pointing out that how things currently are is not how they ought to be, and that this situation is arguably just a subset of the widely reviled War on Drugs.

rory 5y ago
(As the GP) I really appreciate and generally agree with your perspective, but: > the idea that there's some kind of widespread anti-Republican medical discrimination or corruption going on is a total mischaracterization of what I was saying. In fact, it's essentially pulled from thin air. The corruption of the news media is in their choice to mock and literally laugh at people sick from veterinary iver because kicking the out-group is popular with their audience (read $$). They do this instead of explaining (in a meaningful way) how we got here, and what steps we can take to make the situation better.
- buu700 5y ago
  is a total mischaracterization of what I was saying. In fact, it's essentially pulled from thin air. You did refer to "marginalization" of (Republicans') access to medicine. It was unclear whether you were only referring to the effect of well established federal drug policy and standards of the medical industry or a more specific/deliberate marginalization effort. The corruption of the news media is in their choice to mock and literally laugh [...] Ah, well I'm not aware of that, but that may be because I typically rely more on text-based media than video.

abxnlk 5y ago

First of all, trying out random substances or applying existing medicines to different illnesses is exactly how doctors and the pharma industry operate. It's not like doctors actually always understand what is going on; for example, I think even the precise mechanism of anesthetics isn't well understood yet. So people volunteer to test a human approved drug for a different application. I don't believe in Ivermectin specifically, but there's nothing fundamentally wrong with that. It's what medicine does, and most researchers at universities don't have a clue either (as we now see in the entire Covid19 comedy).

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
> First of all, trying out random substances or applying existing medicines to different illnesses is exactly how doctors and the pharma industry operate. Sure, but with methodology and metrics to allow the separation of actual effects from placebo, and in some cases even just enough methodology to be able to measure anything at all.

xdennis 5y ago

In some countries they give free needles to heroin addicts. Why do they care about harm there but for ivermectin they "force" the misinformed people to take the horse paste form?

JohnWhigham 5y ago
Because half the country and the mainstream media would rather revel in laughter at those people than help them. They rationalize it as them being too dumb to take the vaccine instead of probing why exactly people are so distrustful of massive conglomerates that can't be held responsible in any way for any side effects their products may cause. The culture wars have fucked this country hard.

aantix 5y ago

What am I missing? https://ivmmeta.com/#rct https://ivmmeta.com/#rct Evaluation of Ivermectin as a Potential Treatment for Mild to Moderate COVID-19: A Double-BlindRandomized Placebo Controlled Trial in Eastern India https://journals.library.ualberta.ca/jpps/index.php/JPPS/article/view/32105/21639 https://journals.library.ualberta.ca/jpps/index.php/JPPS/art... Ivermectin in combination with doxycycline for treating COVID-19 symptoms: a randomized trial https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/03000605211013550 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/030006052110135... Ivermectin shows clinical benefits in mild to moderate COVID19: a randomized controlled double-blind, dose-response study in Lagos https://academic.oup.com/qjmed/advance-article/doi/10.1093/qjmed/hcab035/6143037 https://academic.oup.com/qjmed/advance-article/doi/10.1093/q...