3 ms·

How does the current field of studies compare to Remdesivir? Remdesivir is a repurposed antiviral (originally designed for Ebola) with fairly low efficacy, and

How does the current field of studies compare to Remdesivir? Remdesivir is a repurposed antiviral (originally designed for Ebola) with fairly low efficacy, and very severe side effects, and it breezed through FDA emergency authorization. I don't understand why it seems that the bar is set so low for Remdesivir, but so high for Ivermectin.

droptablemain 5y ago
I think you answered your own question -- Remdesivir is an antiviral and Ivermectin is an antiparasite.
- programmarchy 5y ago
  It's not that simple. For example, a protease inhibitor could have effects on biological functions that exist in viral and parasitic infections. And both Remdesivir and Ivermectin [1] have been observed to have antiviral properties in vitro. [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166354220302011 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016635422...
  - veemjeem 5y ago
    Many things are effective against covid-19 in-vitro. When it was administered in hamsters, there was no effect on viral load. https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.11.21.392639v1 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.11.21.392639v1
    - programmarchy 5y ago
      I hadn’t seen that paper, but isn’t your statement missing the forest for the trees? If pathology was attenuated, that would help patient recovery, even if viral load wasn’t directly reduced. > Even though ivermectin had no effect on viral load, SARS-Cov-2-associated pathology was greatly attenuated. IVM had a sex-dependent and compartmentalized immunomodulatory effect, preventing clinical deterioration and reducing olfactory deficit in infected animals. Importantly, ivermectin dramatically reduced the Il-6/Il-10 ratio in lung tissue, which likely accounts for the more favorable clinical presentation in treated animals. Our data support IVM as a promising anti-COVID-19 drug candidate.
      - veemjeem 5y ago
        Yes, it seemed like it worked in hamsters, but as we well know, most drugs that work in mice don't work in humans. Besides, we already have many anti-inflammatory drugs that can reduce the cytokines, so it's a stretch to use ivermectin strictly as a steroid.
lez 5y ago
And even lower for the vaccines. Ivermectin has been used with marginal side effects, since decades.
sjg007 5y ago
Are you sure about that? https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2007764 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2007764
- programmarchy 5y ago
  No, I don't think anyone is, because there are also studies that show no benefit: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099%2821%2900485-0/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3... However, I've also heard there's a new study coming out from Gilead that demonstrates Remdesivir is highly effective when administered in early treatment. So perhaps the efficacy depends when treatment is given. And if that's the case, then meta-studies actually become very important, because they can reveal hidden factors like dosage, demographic, when to administer treatment, etc.
  - thehappypm 5y ago
    The problem with Remdesivir is that it's often administered way, way too late. If someone's oxygen is at <90% and they're about to need a ventilator, there's already so much viruses in their system, so much inflammation, and so much cell death that stopping new viral reproduction is too little, too late.
simonh 5y ago
>How does the current field of studies compare to Remdesivir? Remdesivir has three randomised controlled trials all of which indicate statistically significant effects, and there don't seem to be any credible challenges to these trials results. Currently given the concerns about the irregularities in the data in it's existing trials, Ivermectin has none.
- swader999 5y ago
  Say goodbye to your kidneys.

droptablemain 5y ago

I think you answered your own question -- Remdesivir is an antiviral and Ivermectin is an antiparasite.

programmarchy 5y ago
It's not that simple. For example, a protease inhibitor could have effects on biological functions that exist in viral and parasitic infections. And both Remdesivir and Ivermectin [1] have been observed to have antiviral properties in vitro. [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166354220302011 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016635422...
- veemjeem 5y ago
  Many things are effective against covid-19 in-vitro. When it was administered in hamsters, there was no effect on viral load. https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.11.21.392639v1 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.11.21.392639v1
  - programmarchy 5y ago
    I hadn’t seen that paper, but isn’t your statement missing the forest for the trees? If pathology was attenuated, that would help patient recovery, even if viral load wasn’t directly reduced. > Even though ivermectin had no effect on viral load, SARS-Cov-2-associated pathology was greatly attenuated. IVM had a sex-dependent and compartmentalized immunomodulatory effect, preventing clinical deterioration and reducing olfactory deficit in infected animals. Importantly, ivermectin dramatically reduced the Il-6/Il-10 ratio in lung tissue, which likely accounts for the more favorable clinical presentation in treated animals. Our data support IVM as a promising anti-COVID-19 drug candidate.
    - veemjeem 5y ago
      Yes, it seemed like it worked in hamsters, but as we well know, most drugs that work in mice don't work in humans. Besides, we already have many anti-inflammatory drugs that can reduce the cytokines, so it's a stretch to use ivermectin strictly as a steroid.

lez 5y ago

And even lower for the vaccines. Ivermectin has been used with marginal side effects, since decades.

sjg007 5y ago

Are you sure about that? https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2007764 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2007764

programmarchy 5y ago
No, I don't think anyone is, because there are also studies that show no benefit: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099%2821%2900485-0/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3... However, I've also heard there's a new study coming out from Gilead that demonstrates Remdesivir is highly effective when administered in early treatment. So perhaps the efficacy depends when treatment is given. And if that's the case, then meta-studies actually become very important, because they can reveal hidden factors like dosage, demographic, when to administer treatment, etc.
- thehappypm 5y ago
  The problem with Remdesivir is that it's often administered way, way too late. If someone's oxygen is at <90% and they're about to need a ventilator, there's already so much viruses in their system, so much inflammation, and so much cell death that stopping new viral reproduction is too little, too late.

simonh 5y ago

>How does the current field of studies compare to Remdesivir? Remdesivir has three randomised controlled trials all of which indicate statistically significant effects, and there don't seem to be any credible challenges to these trials results. Currently given the concerns about the irregularities in the data in it's existing trials, Ivermectin has none.

swader999 5y ago
Say goodbye to your kidneys.