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Unions work very differently in Denmark than what you're describing. I'm not part of a collective agreement, but I'm still in a union and they will represent me

Unions work very differently in Denmark than what you're describing. I'm not part of a collective agreement, but I'm still in a union and they will represent me in case of a legal disagreement with my employer I've been under a collective bargaining agreement some places I've worked, but even then, there's a lot of room to negotiate based on merit A union in Denmark is for many employees simply a cheap way to cover your legal risks when interacting with the job market

burlesona 5y ago
Thanks for describing that. I can see how the Danish system mostly works well, and I appreciate you elaborating on that. I will say though, the US has historically had a very hard time taking ideas from European countries and getting them to work the same way here. I don’t fully understand why that is, there are loads of things I wish we could copy from abroad. My guess is there’s a lot of sensitivity to initial conditions when it comes to political outcomes, and due to the way things work here I’m skeptical that we could actually copy the Danish model.
- siver_john 5y ago
  A lot of it from what I can tell is American exceptionalism. That we are special and unique and therefore what goes on in the rest of the world simply does not matter. Often this is rephrased as the U.S. is too big or too diverse compared to European countries. Or it can be a simple ignoring of any alternatives or an active movement against. I remember hearing an NPR article about how a US construction worker wanted to go and study the methods of infrastructure improvements in Europe which tended to be cheaper in the same realm, but was denied. The reason for denial was something along the lines as it wasn't pertinent, we didn't need to know that.
- knuthsat 5y ago
  It's not really initial conditions, the US government is already spending a lot on medicaid, medicare and social security, I believe almost 50% of its federal budget. [0] As an EU citizen I definitely can't see the USA becoming more like European countries when it's already spending that much. It's quite likely that the current powers are just leeching the citizens (tax payers), so until there's some reform in health care, the budget is going to be drained as much as possible. I saw it in my EU country (public hospitals writing very specific requirements for a business so that only 1 business fulfills them, families rotating care of a disabled person through all individuals so that all end up getting the pension - the pension is priviliged if work requires you to care for people with disabilities, and a bunch of different EU fund extraction schemes, from public universities to individuals). People learn the tricks of the system and then exploit it, probably more aggressively in the USA. Pension systems in EU countries are collapsing a bit. Just look at % of budget for pensions in Austria, Germany, Croatia etc. Every year they rob the younger generations by raising the pensions for the elderly. I think Croatia recently basically cut pensions by 25% for all people that have about 15 years more of work. Austria is constantly raising the pensions because the life standard increase is driving the elderly to poverty. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget#Major_expenditure_categories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget#M...
  - knuthsat 5y ago
    Here's a nice anecdotal example of an exploit https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28619499 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28619499 Hospitals can easily exploit the insured but not uninsured.
- Shaddox 5y ago
  > I will say though, the US has historically had a very hard time taking ideas from European countries and getting them to work the same way here. I think this is because everyone only sees the upside of the system. When getting down to the nitty and gritty, a lot of sacrifices are made to keep those systems in place, sacrifices that go against the individualistic fiber of American society. To take some spicy issues to put them in this framework : "Free" education. It's not that free, it's just mostly accessible. European Universities are very lean running operations, whereas American universities are grandiose and more like a vacation resort. "Free" healthcare. It's also not that free, just accessible and most of the time, overburdened. There are a ton of public health measures put in place to cut costs of it. Just this week for example they announced doubling of taxes on alcohol. The USA can make it work, for sure. It's the most powerful nation on earth and runs laps around everyone else combined on pretty much every metric. It would take over 100 years of continual USA degradation for anyone else to even start measuring seriously against it. But for systems like this to be put in place requires a serious shift in how people think about society which will not happen in our lifetimes.
  - manuel_w 5y ago
    > It's the most powerful nation on earth and runs laps around everyone else combined on pretty much every metric. Guess you're talking about number of incarcerated citizens per capita, number of adults who believe angels are real, and defense spending? :-) https://youtu.be/VMqcLUqYqrs?t=150 https://youtu.be/VMqcLUqYqrs?t=150

burlesona 5y ago

Thanks for describing that. I can see how the Danish system mostly works well, and I appreciate you elaborating on that. I will say though, the US has historically had a very hard time taking ideas from European countries and getting them to work the same way here. I don’t fully understand why that is, there are loads of things I wish we could copy from abroad. My guess is there’s a lot of sensitivity to initial conditions when it comes to political outcomes, and due to the way things work here I’m skeptical that we could actually copy the Danish model.

siver_john 5y ago
A lot of it from what I can tell is American exceptionalism. That we are special and unique and therefore what goes on in the rest of the world simply does not matter. Often this is rephrased as the U.S. is too big or too diverse compared to European countries. Or it can be a simple ignoring of any alternatives or an active movement against. I remember hearing an NPR article about how a US construction worker wanted to go and study the methods of infrastructure improvements in Europe which tended to be cheaper in the same realm, but was denied. The reason for denial was something along the lines as it wasn't pertinent, we didn't need to know that.
knuthsat 5y ago
It's not really initial conditions, the US government is already spending a lot on medicaid, medicare and social security, I believe almost 50% of its federal budget. [0] As an EU citizen I definitely can't see the USA becoming more like European countries when it's already spending that much. It's quite likely that the current powers are just leeching the citizens (tax payers), so until there's some reform in health care, the budget is going to be drained as much as possible. I saw it in my EU country (public hospitals writing very specific requirements for a business so that only 1 business fulfills them, families rotating care of a disabled person through all individuals so that all end up getting the pension - the pension is priviliged if work requires you to care for people with disabilities, and a bunch of different EU fund extraction schemes, from public universities to individuals). People learn the tricks of the system and then exploit it, probably more aggressively in the USA. Pension systems in EU countries are collapsing a bit. Just look at % of budget for pensions in Austria, Germany, Croatia etc. Every year they rob the younger generations by raising the pensions for the elderly. I think Croatia recently basically cut pensions by 25% for all people that have about 15 years more of work. Austria is constantly raising the pensions because the life standard increase is driving the elderly to poverty. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget#Major_expenditure_categories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget#M...
- knuthsat 5y ago
  Here's a nice anecdotal example of an exploit https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28619499 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28619499 Hospitals can easily exploit the insured but not uninsured.
Shaddox 5y ago
> I will say though, the US has historically had a very hard time taking ideas from European countries and getting them to work the same way here. I think this is because everyone only sees the upside of the system. When getting down to the nitty and gritty, a lot of sacrifices are made to keep those systems in place, sacrifices that go against the individualistic fiber of American society. To take some spicy issues to put them in this framework : "Free" education. It's not that free, it's just mostly accessible. European Universities are very lean running operations, whereas American universities are grandiose and more like a vacation resort. "Free" healthcare. It's also not that free, just accessible and most of the time, overburdened. There are a ton of public health measures put in place to cut costs of it. Just this week for example they announced doubling of taxes on alcohol. The USA can make it work, for sure. It's the most powerful nation on earth and runs laps around everyone else combined on pretty much every metric. It would take over 100 years of continual USA degradation for anyone else to even start measuring seriously against it. But for systems like this to be put in place requires a serious shift in how people think about society which will not happen in our lifetimes.
- manuel_w 5y ago
  > It's the most powerful nation on earth and runs laps around everyone else combined on pretty much every metric. Guess you're talking about number of incarcerated citizens per capita, number of adults who believe angels are real, and defense spending? :-) https://youtu.be/VMqcLUqYqrs?t=150 https://youtu.be/VMqcLUqYqrs?t=150