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Edit: I’m responding with my US experience because the author concludes with “if we want the US to be like this…” Working for a few years in a licensed field w

Edit: I’m responding with my US experience because the author concludes with “if we want the US to be like this…” Working for a few years in a licensed field was very frustrating, so personally I’m glad not to work in a union. The entire system was based on tenure, so there’s limited opportunity to get ahead by working hard, you just have to wait your turn. Further, you are always at risk of losing your career if you speak out against the orthodoxy of the organization (licensing establishment in my case). I want to see all workers paid better and everyone to have a good material life, regardless of whether they’re an all-star worker or entrepreneur. But to me it seems a better formula to get there is for companies to face fierce competition and firm anti-trust regulation to limit their power, and for individuals to have a robust social safety net that greatly reduces the risk of failure which increases their power. As one example, in my experience as a small business owner, nothing causes me more stress than healthcare and ensuring my team has good coverage. But big companies have a huge advantage of scale and can provide this benefit much more efficiently than I can. At the same time, for workers in the US, the need for good healthcare gives employers tremendous power over employees, and deters many from taking on entrepreneurial risk. If we had quality universal health care in the US, I would expect that to result in meaningful wage increases and a lot of new business formation and competition, as it would represent a large shift of power from companies to individuals.

Scandiravian 5y ago
Unions work very differently in Denmark than what you're describing. I'm not part of a collective agreement, but I'm still in a union and they will represent me in case of a legal disagreement with my employer I've been under a collective bargaining agreement some places I've worked, but even then, there's a lot of room to negotiate based on merit A union in Denmark is for many employees simply a cheap way to cover your legal risks when interacting with the job market
- burlesona 5y ago
  Thanks for describing that. I can see how the Danish system mostly works well, and I appreciate you elaborating on that. I will say though, the US has historically had a very hard time taking ideas from European countries and getting them to work the same way here. I don’t fully understand why that is, there are loads of things I wish we could copy from abroad. My guess is there’s a lot of sensitivity to initial conditions when it comes to political outcomes, and due to the way things work here I’m skeptical that we could actually copy the Danish model.
  - siver_john 5y ago
    A lot of it from what I can tell is American exceptionalism. That we are special and unique and therefore what goes on in the rest of the world simply does not matter. Often this is rephrased as the U.S. is too big or too diverse compared to European countries. Or it can be a simple ignoring of any alternatives or an active movement against. I remember hearing an NPR article about how a US construction worker wanted to go and study the methods of infrastructure improvements in Europe which tended to be cheaper in the same realm, but was denied. The reason for denial was something along the lines as it wasn't pertinent, we didn't need to know that.
  - knuthsat 5y ago
    It's not really initial conditions, the US government is already spending a lot on medicaid, medicare and social security, I believe almost 50% of its federal budget. [0] As an EU citizen I definitely can't see the USA becoming more like European countries when it's already spending that much. It's quite likely that the current powers are just leeching the citizens (tax payers), so until there's some reform in health care, the budget is going to be drained as much as possible. I saw it in my EU country (public hospitals writing very specific requirements for a business so that only 1 business fulfills them, families rotating care of a disabled person through all individuals so that all end up getting the pension - the pension is priviliged if work requires you to care for people with disabilities, and a bunch of different EU fund extraction schemes, from public universities to individuals). People learn the tricks of the system and then exploit it, probably more aggressively in the USA. Pension systems in EU countries are collapsing a bit. Just look at % of budget for pensions in Austria, Germany, Croatia etc. Every year they rob the younger generations by raising the pensions for the elderly. I think Croatia recently basically cut pensions by 25% for all people that have about 15 years more of work. Austria is constantly raising the pensions because the life standard increase is driving the elderly to poverty. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget#Major_expenditure_categories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget#M...
    - knuthsat 5y ago
      Here's a nice anecdotal example of an exploit https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28619499 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28619499 Hospitals can easily exploit the insured but not uninsured.
skeletal88 5y ago
You are talking about your experience about unions in the US under an article about Denmark where things are a lot different. The world is not the US.
- burlesona 5y ago
  You’re right, and I should have been more clear. I’m responding with a US comment because the article concludes with the author suggesting what it would take to make the US work this way. I’ve edited my post to reflect that.
  - jopsen 5y ago
    You'll also find cases in Denmark where a union doesn't want you to have certain benefits because it breaks the collective agreement and pay scale, etc. It's rare. But let's also be fair, these rigid structures do make sense in some sectors: factory work where skill is of no importance (just one example).

Scandiravian 5y ago

Unions work very differently in Denmark than what you're describing. I'm not part of a collective agreement, but I'm still in a union and they will represent me in case of a legal disagreement with my employer I've been under a collective bargaining agreement some places I've worked, but even then, there's a lot of room to negotiate based on merit A union in Denmark is for many employees simply a cheap way to cover your legal risks when interacting with the job market

burlesona 5y ago
Thanks for describing that. I can see how the Danish system mostly works well, and I appreciate you elaborating on that. I will say though, the US has historically had a very hard time taking ideas from European countries and getting them to work the same way here. I don’t fully understand why that is, there are loads of things I wish we could copy from abroad. My guess is there’s a lot of sensitivity to initial conditions when it comes to political outcomes, and due to the way things work here I’m skeptical that we could actually copy the Danish model.
- siver_john 5y ago
  A lot of it from what I can tell is American exceptionalism. That we are special and unique and therefore what goes on in the rest of the world simply does not matter. Often this is rephrased as the U.S. is too big or too diverse compared to European countries. Or it can be a simple ignoring of any alternatives or an active movement against. I remember hearing an NPR article about how a US construction worker wanted to go and study the methods of infrastructure improvements in Europe which tended to be cheaper in the same realm, but was denied. The reason for denial was something along the lines as it wasn't pertinent, we didn't need to know that.
- knuthsat 5y ago
  It's not really initial conditions, the US government is already spending a lot on medicaid, medicare and social security, I believe almost 50% of its federal budget. [0] As an EU citizen I definitely can't see the USA becoming more like European countries when it's already spending that much. It's quite likely that the current powers are just leeching the citizens (tax payers), so until there's some reform in health care, the budget is going to be drained as much as possible. I saw it in my EU country (public hospitals writing very specific requirements for a business so that only 1 business fulfills them, families rotating care of a disabled person through all individuals so that all end up getting the pension - the pension is priviliged if work requires you to care for people with disabilities, and a bunch of different EU fund extraction schemes, from public universities to individuals). People learn the tricks of the system and then exploit it, probably more aggressively in the USA. Pension systems in EU countries are collapsing a bit. Just look at % of budget for pensions in Austria, Germany, Croatia etc. Every year they rob the younger generations by raising the pensions for the elderly. I think Croatia recently basically cut pensions by 25% for all people that have about 15 years more of work. Austria is constantly raising the pensions because the life standard increase is driving the elderly to poverty. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget#Major_expenditure_categories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget#M...
  - knuthsat 5y ago
    Here's a nice anecdotal example of an exploit https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28619499 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28619499 Hospitals can easily exploit the insured but not uninsured.

skeletal88 5y ago

You are talking about your experience about unions in the US under an article about Denmark where things are a lot different. The world is not the US.

burlesona 5y ago
You’re right, and I should have been more clear. I’m responding with a US comment because the article concludes with the author suggesting what it would take to make the US work this way. I’ve edited my post to reflect that.
- jopsen 5y ago
  You'll also find cases in Denmark where a union doesn't want you to have certain benefits because it breaks the collective agreement and pay scale, etc. It's rare. But let's also be fair, these rigid structures do make sense in some sectors: factory work where skill is of no importance (just one example).