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This is a brilliant idea. Absolutely brilliant. My biggest reservation about buying LEDs now isn't the price; it's that the lights that will be available next

This is a brilliant idea. Absolutely brilliant. My biggest reservation about buying LEDs now isn't the price; it's that the lights that will be available next year will be twice as good, and I can't stand the thought of discarding an entire bulb in order to upgrade. It makes no sense to me that the actual LED is inseparable from its quarter-pound aluminium and plastic shroud. A lightbulb should allow you to swap out some small component that includes the LED die and perhaps the driver.

ars 15y ago
When compact fluorescent bulbs first came out they did something like this. The ballast lasts much much longer than the bulb, so you were able to remove the bulb while keeping the ballast. It was a total failure. And in hindsight a terrible idea. No two companies' bulbs were compatible so most of the time you were not able to find a replacement bulb even if you tried, and when you could find them they cost more than an entire new bulb! The reason is that the extra cost of manufacturing them in a replaceable fashion costs more than simply tossing them. I can confidently predict that you will never swap any components from a commercial LED bulb. And BTW the "LED die and perhaps the driver" is probably 95% of the cost of the bulb. The heatsink and housing is nothing in comparison. There is nothing of value in them to keep. Just recycle them for the metal.
- nate_meurer 15y ago
  > "No two companies' bulbs were compatible so most of the time you were not able to find a replacement bulb..." Standardization would be much easier for LEDs than for CFLs simply because of the size of the package. We have plenty of standard bulb bases that could potentially be used for LEDs, e.g. E-10 or PR-6. The biggest issue is ensuring enough contact with the heat sink. > "The reason is that the extra cost of manufacturing them in a replaceable fashion costs more than simply tossing them." There's no way to know this without seeing the manufacturing breakdown. The additional cost may be negligible. > "The LED die and perhaps the driver is probably 95% of the cost of the bulb" That may be true now, but I personally don't care. Given the choice between replacing an entire bulb and replacing a small piece for slightly less, guess which one I'll choose. Furthermore, this situation will change quickly as LED bulbs are made in greater quantities. Ultimately the cost of the electronics and the LED will be cents. Think about what's happened to LED flashlights. The cost of the aluminum and plastic fixture is fixed.
  - ars 15y ago
    Wow, you have a certain mindset and you don't want to change it. > Standardization would be much easier for LEDs No, it would be just as hard because LEDs are very new and the perfect format is not known yet. It'll be a decade or more before anyone can think of standardization. > The additional cost may be negligible. No, the additional cost will probably double the cost, and require extra material and energy to make it. > That may be true now, but I personally don't care. Given the choice between replacing an entire bulb and replacing a small piece for slightly less, guess which one I'll choose. Like I said, a certain mindset and you don't want to change it. Even if this is worse for the environment you would still prefer this? It's greenwashing, it provides no benefit, but it makes you feel better that you didn't throw something away. You would pay more for the initial bulb, and the new component will cost more than a new bulb - so you pay more twice. And of course you are not paying for nothing, you are paying for extra material and extra manufacturing energy. > Ultimately the cost of the electronics and the LED will be cents. Think about what's happened to LED flashlights. The cost of the aluminum and plastic fixture is fixed. The plastic fixture costs cents. The expensive part is making it, not the raw material. This will be true even in some future where high power LEDs are cheap.
    - nate_meurer 15y ago
      I'm not really wedded to a conclusion or "mind set" here. I just don't buy your assertions, which you seem to have pulled out of your ars :) My proposition is pretty simple: I would like to see LED light bulbs adopt some of the same modularity used in other LED lighting products such as flash lights and bike headlights. I don't have to throw away an entire headlight in order to upgrade, and I don't want to throw away heavy aluminum light bulbs either. I have no idea if there's a market in this, but Nate's money is on the table. Now, if you you really knew this subject well, you might have pointed out that cooling requirements are pretty specific to the type of LED and driver, and are likely to change rapidly, thus making current shrouds and heat sinks subject to imminent obsolescence. Or you might have pointed out the possibility that remote phosphors will catch on widely, which would seriously complicate the whole arrangement. Or you might have pointed out the fact that the economics of manufacturing mass-market lighting appears to favor arrays of cheap LEDs over single expensive LEDs, which would obviously make modularity difficult or impossible. If indeed modularity would double the cost of a bulb, as you say, then that would obviously kill the idea as well. If you would be so kind, please provide a citation for this.

ars 15y ago

When compact fluorescent bulbs first came out they did something like this. The ballast lasts much much longer than the bulb, so you were able to remove the bulb while keeping the ballast. It was a total failure. And in hindsight a terrible idea. No two companies' bulbs were compatible so most of the time you were not able to find a replacement bulb even if you tried, and when you could find them they cost more than an entire new bulb! The reason is that the extra cost of manufacturing them in a replaceable fashion costs more than simply tossing them. I can confidently predict that you will never swap any components from a commercial LED bulb. And BTW the "LED die and perhaps the driver" is probably 95% of the cost of the bulb. The heatsink and housing is nothing in comparison. There is nothing of value in them to keep. Just recycle them for the metal.

nate_meurer 15y ago
> "No two companies' bulbs were compatible so most of the time you were not able to find a replacement bulb..." Standardization would be much easier for LEDs than for CFLs simply because of the size of the package. We have plenty of standard bulb bases that could potentially be used for LEDs, e.g. E-10 or PR-6. The biggest issue is ensuring enough contact with the heat sink. > "The reason is that the extra cost of manufacturing them in a replaceable fashion costs more than simply tossing them." There's no way to know this without seeing the manufacturing breakdown. The additional cost may be negligible. > "The LED die and perhaps the driver is probably 95% of the cost of the bulb" That may be true now, but I personally don't care. Given the choice between replacing an entire bulb and replacing a small piece for slightly less, guess which one I'll choose. Furthermore, this situation will change quickly as LED bulbs are made in greater quantities. Ultimately the cost of the electronics and the LED will be cents. Think about what's happened to LED flashlights. The cost of the aluminum and plastic fixture is fixed.
- ars 15y ago
  Wow, you have a certain mindset and you don't want to change it. > Standardization would be much easier for LEDs No, it would be just as hard because LEDs are very new and the perfect format is not known yet. It'll be a decade or more before anyone can think of standardization. > The additional cost may be negligible. No, the additional cost will probably double the cost, and require extra material and energy to make it. > That may be true now, but I personally don't care. Given the choice between replacing an entire bulb and replacing a small piece for slightly less, guess which one I'll choose. Like I said, a certain mindset and you don't want to change it. Even if this is worse for the environment you would still prefer this? It's greenwashing, it provides no benefit, but it makes you feel better that you didn't throw something away. You would pay more for the initial bulb, and the new component will cost more than a new bulb - so you pay more twice. And of course you are not paying for nothing, you are paying for extra material and extra manufacturing energy. > Ultimately the cost of the electronics and the LED will be cents. Think about what's happened to LED flashlights. The cost of the aluminum and plastic fixture is fixed. The plastic fixture costs cents. The expensive part is making it, not the raw material. This will be true even in some future where high power LEDs are cheap.
  - nate_meurer 15y ago
    I'm not really wedded to a conclusion or "mind set" here. I just don't buy your assertions, which you seem to have pulled out of your ars :) My proposition is pretty simple: I would like to see LED light bulbs adopt some of the same modularity used in other LED lighting products such as flash lights and bike headlights. I don't have to throw away an entire headlight in order to upgrade, and I don't want to throw away heavy aluminum light bulbs either. I have no idea if there's a market in this, but Nate's money is on the table. Now, if you you really knew this subject well, you might have pointed out that cooling requirements are pretty specific to the type of LED and driver, and are likely to change rapidly, thus making current shrouds and heat sinks subject to imminent obsolescence. Or you might have pointed out the possibility that remote phosphors will catch on widely, which would seriously complicate the whole arrangement. Or you might have pointed out the fact that the economics of manufacturing mass-market lighting appears to favor arrays of cheap LEDs over single expensive LEDs, which would obviously make modularity difficult or impossible. If indeed modularity would double the cost of a bulb, as you say, then that would obviously kill the idea as well. If you would be so kind, please provide a citation for this.