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Changing a connector is not trivial if you have hundreds of millions of customers and a massive ecosystem of third-party vendors, each with their own roadmap.

Changing a connector is not trivial if you have hundreds of millions of customers and a massive ecosystem of third-party vendors, each with their own roadmap. Of course, Apple could pull it off if they really wanted. They’ve done it it with iPads. But please don’t frame it as customer trolling. We’re better than that here.

yellowapple 5y ago
> Changing a connector is not trivial if you have hundreds of millions of customers and a massive ecosystem of third-party vendors, each with their own roadmap. And yet not only has Apple already done exactly that for iPhones (specifically: migrating from the iPod connector to Lightning), but so has virtually every Android vendor done exactly that for Android devices (specifically: migrating from USB micro-B to USB C).
- masklinn 5y ago
  > And yet not only has Apple already done exactly that for iPhones (specifically: migrating from the iPod connector to Lightning) That’s the point though is it not? Apple was just out of a connector switch, which required users to throw out all their old accessories and get new ones. They were not going to do that again within just a few years. > so has virtually every Android vendor done exactly that for Android devices (specifically: migrating from USB micro-B to USB C). Historically, Android had nowhere near the accessories ecosystem of Apple. I believe that is why Apple is starting the switchover to USB-C, with the new iPad using USB-C: * the dock connector lived for about 10 years, we’re approaching the 10th year of Lightning, that’s a pretty good lifecycle for a connector * the universality of USB-C amongst Android manufacturers means there now is a large ecosystem of accessories and Apple won’t have to rebuild their ecosystem from scratch I wouldn’t be surprised if the ipad was basically a warning shot, and Apple switched the rest of their mobile devices over to USB-C with the 2022 releases.
  - 542354234235 5y ago
    >which required users to throw out all their old accessories and get new ones. Not if you migrate to the standard that every other device uses. Isn’t that the exact advantage of a universal standard?
    - Hackbraten 5y ago
      USB type C didn’t exist back then, while USB 2.0 type micro B didn’t offer the required bandwidth.
  - frosted-flakes 5y ago
    What accessories? A charging cable or headphone adapter? Ship them with the phone. There, done. In fact, Apple used to include both, but not USB-C.
- Hackbraten 5y ago
  > And yet not only has Apple already done exactly that for iPhones (specifically: migrating from the iPod connector to Lightning) I feel that only confirms my point. The switch happened ten years ago, yet many people are still being mad at Apple today over it. > but so has virtually every Android vendor done exactly that I think I’m failing to see your point. None of those vendors has any amount of control over the USB accessory ecosystem, or do they?
  - yellowapple 5y ago
    > I feel that only confirms my point. The switch happened ten years ago, yet many people are still being mad at Apple today over it. It disproves your point from multiple directions: 1. It demonstrates that Apple has no qualms about abandoning proprietary connectors and leaving an entire connector ecosystem stranded overnight. 2. It demonstrates that said connector ecosystem has no qualms about adapting to a new proprietary connector - let alone a standardized one. And no, I know of precisely zero people upset about switching away from the iPod connector. The only thing about which anyone is upset about is the fact that Apple chose a different proprietary connector instead of using that opportunity to standardize. > I think I’m failing to see your point. None of those vendors has any amount of control over the USB accessory ecosystem, or do they? The bigger players absolutely do manufacture their own accessories, but that's secondary to my point: that the accessory market readily adapted to phone manufacturers switching connectors on its own. Apple, if anything, would have an easier time for the exact reason you indicate: Apple has control over the Apple accessory ecosystem, and can use that control to put additional pressure on accessory makers.
hnbad 5y ago
> We’re better than that here. What do people think they're saying by saying this? No, this has literally happened here by one of "us" so "we" are clearly not better than this. Heck, "we" have done and are continuously doing far worse than this.
- Hackbraten 5y ago
  In case it’s not entirely clear: I was referring to HN guidelines. Accusing others of acting in bad faith is never helpful. I will continue to remind others of the rules, no matter how often they’ve been broken in the past.
  - dreamcompiler 5y ago
    Accusing people of acting in bad faith is impolite. Accusing companies of acting in bad faith when there is ample evidence of their wrongdoing is one's duty as a consumer.
    - Hackbraten 5y ago
      Ample evidence for Apple’s wrongdoing? Yes. Ample evidence for “Apple […] fucking with us all on purpose, just because they can?” Please elaborate.
  - hnbad 5y ago
    Cool. Yet this behavior (and worse) is widespread and not being punished by moderators except for the most blatantly obnoxious cases. Guidelines are only relevant to the extent that they are enforced, otherwise they're just a wish list, not a code of conduct. Speaking of good faith, a good faith reading of their comment would be that they think Apple is intentionally maintaining a non-standard connector for their smartphone range despite knowing that switching to USB-C would be beneficial to their users. Alleging that Apple acts in bad faith hardly seems like a violation of HN guidelines. If anything, the claim that they put the needs of the users first would seem the preposterous one as one would expect them to be beholden to their shareholders (and thus profit) above all, not their customers, and there are plenty of reasons why maintaining their own connector might be more profitable.
southerntofu 5y ago
Before USB-C, the universal, international standard was micro-USB and every phone manufacturer (at least in Europe) was bound by law to implement it. Apple has changed its connectors since socket interoperability became effective and they could have adopted the standard. They just purposefully ignored the consumer-respecting standards in order to keep their 40$-connector business flowing. According to European regulations, Apple's actions are strictly illegal, but if any law enforcement actually cared to protect people from wealthy corporations, we probably wouldn't have any climate change, tax evasion, planned obsolescence, science-denial smoking ads, corporate land grabs, companies stealing water supplies from local populations... As always, laws that protect the weak from the powerful are betrayed, while laws that protect the powerful from the weak are strongly enforced.
- himinlomax 5y ago
  Let's be charitable here, the lightning connector appears to be more durable than USB-C, at least on the device side. There's no protrusion, whereas in USB-C the contacts are on a very thin prong that çan be damaged if something small enough manages to get inside the connector.
  - The_Colonel 5y ago
    There's a difference between charitable and naive. I doubt the USB-C durability is a large scale problem. I follow smartphone world quite closely and have never heard/read about USB-C issues.
    - rualca 5y ago
      > I follow smartphone world quite closely and have never heard/read about USB-C issues. This isn't an effective point as the "smartphone world" is plagued by ephemeral devices which are either susceptible to programmed obsolescence or are caught in an upgrade treadmill due to a myriad of reasons (non-replaceable batteries failing, screen problems, camera issues, hardware failing due to wear, blocked software updates, fads, etc..)
  - 5y ago

yellowapple 5y ago

> Changing a connector is not trivial if you have hundreds of millions of customers and a massive ecosystem of third-party vendors, each with their own roadmap. And yet not only has Apple already done exactly that for iPhones (specifically: migrating from the iPod connector to Lightning), but so has virtually every Android vendor done exactly that for Android devices (specifically: migrating from USB micro-B to USB C).

masklinn 5y ago
> And yet not only has Apple already done exactly that for iPhones (specifically: migrating from the iPod connector to Lightning) That’s the point though is it not? Apple was just out of a connector switch, which required users to throw out all their old accessories and get new ones. They were not going to do that again within just a few years. > so has virtually every Android vendor done exactly that for Android devices (specifically: migrating from USB micro-B to USB C). Historically, Android had nowhere near the accessories ecosystem of Apple. I believe that is why Apple is starting the switchover to USB-C, with the new iPad using USB-C: * the dock connector lived for about 10 years, we’re approaching the 10th year of Lightning, that’s a pretty good lifecycle for a connector * the universality of USB-C amongst Android manufacturers means there now is a large ecosystem of accessories and Apple won’t have to rebuild their ecosystem from scratch I wouldn’t be surprised if the ipad was basically a warning shot, and Apple switched the rest of their mobile devices over to USB-C with the 2022 releases.
- 542354234235 5y ago
  >which required users to throw out all their old accessories and get new ones. Not if you migrate to the standard that every other device uses. Isn’t that the exact advantage of a universal standard?
  - Hackbraten 5y ago
    USB type C didn’t exist back then, while USB 2.0 type micro B didn’t offer the required bandwidth.
- frosted-flakes 5y ago
  What accessories? A charging cable or headphone adapter? Ship them with the phone. There, done. In fact, Apple used to include both, but not USB-C.
Hackbraten 5y ago
> And yet not only has Apple already done exactly that for iPhones (specifically: migrating from the iPod connector to Lightning) I feel that only confirms my point. The switch happened ten years ago, yet many people are still being mad at Apple today over it. > but so has virtually every Android vendor done exactly that I think I’m failing to see your point. None of those vendors has any amount of control over the USB accessory ecosystem, or do they?
- yellowapple 5y ago
  > I feel that only confirms my point. The switch happened ten years ago, yet many people are still being mad at Apple today over it. It disproves your point from multiple directions: 1. It demonstrates that Apple has no qualms about abandoning proprietary connectors and leaving an entire connector ecosystem stranded overnight. 2. It demonstrates that said connector ecosystem has no qualms about adapting to a new proprietary connector - let alone a standardized one. And no, I know of precisely zero people upset about switching away from the iPod connector. The only thing about which anyone is upset about is the fact that Apple chose a different proprietary connector instead of using that opportunity to standardize. > I think I’m failing to see your point. None of those vendors has any amount of control over the USB accessory ecosystem, or do they? The bigger players absolutely do manufacture their own accessories, but that's secondary to my point: that the accessory market readily adapted to phone manufacturers switching connectors on its own. Apple, if anything, would have an easier time for the exact reason you indicate: Apple has control over the Apple accessory ecosystem, and can use that control to put additional pressure on accessory makers.

hnbad 5y ago

> We’re better than that here. What do people think they're saying by saying this? No, this has literally happened here by one of "us" so "we" are clearly not better than this. Heck, "we" have done and are continuously doing far worse than this.

Hackbraten 5y ago
In case it’s not entirely clear: I was referring to HN guidelines. Accusing others of acting in bad faith is never helpful. I will continue to remind others of the rules, no matter how often they’ve been broken in the past.
- dreamcompiler 5y ago
  Accusing people of acting in bad faith is impolite. Accusing companies of acting in bad faith when there is ample evidence of their wrongdoing is one's duty as a consumer.
  - Hackbraten 5y ago
    Ample evidence for Apple’s wrongdoing? Yes. Ample evidence for “Apple […] fucking with us all on purpose, just because they can?” Please elaborate.
- hnbad 5y ago
  Cool. Yet this behavior (and worse) is widespread and not being punished by moderators except for the most blatantly obnoxious cases. Guidelines are only relevant to the extent that they are enforced, otherwise they're just a wish list, not a code of conduct. Speaking of good faith, a good faith reading of their comment would be that they think Apple is intentionally maintaining a non-standard connector for their smartphone range despite knowing that switching to USB-C would be beneficial to their users. Alleging that Apple acts in bad faith hardly seems like a violation of HN guidelines. If anything, the claim that they put the needs of the users first would seem the preposterous one as one would expect them to be beholden to their shareholders (and thus profit) above all, not their customers, and there are plenty of reasons why maintaining their own connector might be more profitable.

southerntofu 5y ago

Before USB-C, the universal, international standard was micro-USB and every phone manufacturer (at least in Europe) was bound by law to implement it. Apple has changed its connectors since socket interoperability became effective and they could have adopted the standard. They just purposefully ignored the consumer-respecting standards in order to keep their 40$-connector business flowing. According to European regulations, Apple's actions are strictly illegal, but if any law enforcement actually cared to protect people from wealthy corporations, we probably wouldn't have any climate change, tax evasion, planned obsolescence, science-denial smoking ads, corporate land grabs, companies stealing water supplies from local populations... As always, laws that protect the weak from the powerful are betrayed, while laws that protect the powerful from the weak are strongly enforced.

himinlomax 5y ago
Let's be charitable here, the lightning connector appears to be more durable than USB-C, at least on the device side. There's no protrusion, whereas in USB-C the contacts are on a very thin prong that çan be damaged if something small enough manages to get inside the connector.
- The_Colonel 5y ago
  There's a difference between charitable and naive. I doubt the USB-C durability is a large scale problem. I follow smartphone world quite closely and have never heard/read about USB-C issues.
  - rualca 5y ago
    > I follow smartphone world quite closely and have never heard/read about USB-C issues. This isn't an effective point as the "smartphone world" is plagued by ephemeral devices which are either susceptible to programmed obsolescence or are caught in an upgrade treadmill due to a myriad of reasons (non-replaceable batteries failing, screen problems, camera issues, hardware failing due to wear, blocked software updates, fads, etc..)
- 5y ago