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You say this like it's an inevitable part of life instead of picking just picking bad spouses or being bad at relationships. When the husbands in these relatio

You say this like it's an inevitable part of life instead of picking just picking bad spouses or being bad at relationships. When the husbands in these relationships lost their job did they try to get back out there? Did they help at home? Did they do anything about it? If my wife lost her job and showed no motivation to get another one then I'd probably divorce her too. Part of what I admire in my partner is her incredible work ethic. Maybe instead of complaining about "gender roles" complain about people picking shitty spouses and not having hard conversations about these sort of situations before they actually happen.

bartvk 5y ago
You can pick a great spouse but some people change after kids arrive. My partner had a great work ethic too. But after our daughter was born, that supposedly great work ethic caused them to keep working at the same pace, destroying our relationship. Admittedly, you also mention "bad at relationships" and that element was present on both sides as well.
- Arisaka1 5y ago
  There are people who "change" even after marriage. My father had one such experience when he decided to get married again and his new wife asked him to put her in the house contract as an equal owner. He didn't take that well because, she asked barely a week after the marriage. For what it's worth, that was his second attempt to marry someone after he broke up with my mother. The first was with a woman who hated me in absurd levels to the point that she would attempt to choke me and throw knives at me because (according to my father, I was too young to actually engage her in any form of discussion) I reminded her of his previous relationship. And all that happened after 4 years of him being in a casual relationship with her. Anyways, I don't know if I would call it changing or rather that there are people who try to hide their true colors until I get what they want.
  - touisteur 5y ago
    Talk about some people needing psychiatric containment. I hope this doesn't hurt too much now as an adult. It surely wasn't your fault in any way.
  - watwut 5y ago
    > she would attempt to choke me and throw knives at me because (according to my father, I was too young to actually engage her in any form of discussion) I reminded her of his previous relationship. And all that happened after 4 years of him being in a casual relationship with her. May I suggest that it is highly unlikely there were no warning signs. This level of violence does not come out of nowhere (neither in women nor in men). It tends to consequence of escalations. The hate toward the offspring itself should have been seen as warning sign. Like, yes, dad is there victim of domestic violence too. But like with women who pick yet another abuser again, there is issue with partner selection, not knowing warning signs or interpreting them as passion or some variant of that.
laurent92 5y ago
If it’s reproducible, it stops being single examples. All your other sentences are variations of “Man up”. In our society, we are used to seeing people getting at least vocal support when things get hard, harassment at work, inability to ask for higher pay, etc. We just forget that, when it’s men, the advice is “Ok maybe work gave you trust issues, but have you tried to man up? Why would you expect support from a spouse if you, yourself, aren’t self-supported?” It defeats the idea of “he for she, she for he.”
- MathCodeLove 5y ago
  I agree that men do face some unique social challenges, but none of those are present here. Yes, why should you expect support from a spouse if you aren't doing anything for yourself? This goes for men and women. Of course both parties should be allowed moments of vulnerability, but I thought it was pretty cleat that my statements were in the context of a long-term struggle. If my wife gets fired and has a bad week, I'll be there to support her and would expect the same in return. If she has a bad month, we'll sit down and have a serious talk about what she needs to do going forward. If the only support you're getting is "man up" then maybe you should find yourself a different social circle and/or partner. "He for she, she for he" means just that. It explicitly does not mean "He for she even when she isn't there for she, she for he even when he isn't there for he". If you expect people to "support" you whilst you make no personal effort then perhaps you should reevaluate your outlook on life as a whole. That isn't how things should work in a healthy relationship.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- vasco 5y ago
  Everyone would be better off if they just tried a little bit harder to be more mentally resilient. I don't understand people who act like suggesting this is wrong. Sometimes people need help, and sometimes they just need to deal with it because nobody else can for them. Not saying this is just hiding the truth.
touisteur 5y ago
Eerrrr. I know you mean well and I agree with 'choosing your partner' and it might be the most important of your choices in life. But. Losing a job can be utterly crushing and depressing. Bringing work ethic in what might be late triggered burnout or full on depression doesn't seem helpful as a partner. Yes, some people are lazy, but of your partner had a job they were doing with success or at least what you might consider 'work ethics' and then loses it, and can't muster 'putting themselves out there' there might something else you can do to help, rather than divorce? Therapy? Helping with finding a job? Some years ago, I burned out, and was asked by my doctor to stay home, and this was followed by crushing depression. I was broken for months until I pieced myself back together, with help (therapy, meds, spending time with my kids...). My spouse says she was afraid I was lost, not going bacl to work, afraid I'd be broken forever. Thank heavens she just didn't ditch my ass, she helped me back and I'm watching myself more than ever, because I don't want that to happen twice. Seeing the person you love falling apart in such a way (depression, burnout) can tempt you to reevaluate the person as a whole. But if you can't stay and help when I'm broken, what kind of partner are you? Sure there's a limit, and everyone must draw a line somewhere (and I'm pretty sure I decided mine before we married), but losing one's job isn't there for me.
- hycaria 5y ago
  You skimmed the second part of the sentence. "my wife lost her job and showed no motivation to get another one"
  - touisteur 5y ago
    I didn't skim it. It was precisely that part that prompted my comment. There is no indication of 'why' she might show no motivation. The assumption here seems to be that she's a freerider, a burden, and not a partner with motivation issues. And I cited good reasons for lacking motivation. From personal experience. Yes, there are people that become lazy, or show their laziness after some time hiding it behind an easy 0-producing job. And yes sometimes you discover that you don't like that in your partner and maybe you're now too different, etc. But this hustle mentality, don't stop and think, just find a job, any job, gogogogogogogogogo, isn't how I want to be treated when laid off or broken in some way. There's a lot of talk on HN about mental health, burnout, depression, but also lots of people that seem to be OK to ditch a partner at the first sign of him or her not being 100% 'on' all the time. There's many discussions to be had when you realize your partner doesn't want to work anymore. The first one is probably 'downsizing' as fast as possible. Can we live on one salary? How much time? What do we let go to weather this? Do you think it's temporary, do you want to switch careers? Are you ready to lose those comforts? Are you thinking about the near future? Do you have plans? Do I sit in them? do you want to try therapy? Maybe not all the questions on the same day. Decisions, together. And red lines if you must. Money, kids, health. Yours and your partners. I was just saying, maybe someone you trusted and observed having fine work ethics (if that's what floats your boat) changing suddenly, is maybe sign of a problem you were supposed to be helping with, as the other person in this relationship.
ajuc 5y ago
If a lot of people are shitty in the same way we can try to find out what causes that and fix it. There's a reason "you're not a real women" isn't an insult, but "you're not a real man" is. There's a reason men live 3-10% shorter than women and commit suicide several times more often (in my country 8 times more often). And there's a reason divorce law is absurdly sexist. This is not to say "women are evil", there's no secret conspiracy to reinforce the gender roles, no "matriarchy" nor "patriarchy" keeping the status quo. It's simply people repeating what they were taught about life to their children because "that's the way it should be". So the fix isn't to "find better spouses", the fix is to make people better human beings and live the way they want.
- pjc50 5y ago
  > no "matriarchy" nor "patriarchy" keeping the status quo. It's simply people repeating what they were taught about life to their children because "that's the way it should be". That is the "patriarchy". It was never claimed to be a Dr Evil thing.
  - ajuc 5y ago
    Well, the way it's portrayed in some feminist propaganda it's a club of old white guys keeping everybody else down. Also calling it "patriarchy" when it hurts both genders equally and is reinforced by both genders equally - is counterproductive.
    - pjc50 5y ago
      What would you prefer to call it?
      - ajuc 5y ago
        Harmful gender stereotypes? Culturally enforced strict gender roles? Something like that. Another related concept in feminism is "toxic masculinity" and that name is even worse. If you're trying to solve a problem don't start by naming it "it's all their faultism". Curiously I've never heard anybody call the same phenomenon happening to women "toxic femininity".
dennis_jeeves 5y ago
>You say this like it's an inevitable part of life instead of picking just picking bad spouses or being bad at relationships. This means that most people will end up being single, which is a actually a good thing in the long run.
thatjoeoverthr 5y ago
People, generally, get married when they’re confident they found a good spouse and not a shitty one. It’s ok to empathize with people who get dumped or divorced unfairly. Especially in certain countries where the process is so destructive. Empathy isn’t a crime.
goodpoint 5y ago
> Maybe instead of complaining about "gender roles" complain about people picking shitty spouses No need for the whataboutism: gender roles exists and are deeply entrenched in some societies. A simple measure is how often divorces end with the ex-husband having to pay spousal support to the ex-wife and not the other way around. This is a clear indication of how the legal system expects men to be "providers" and, therefore, woman careers and financial independence to be less important.
- watwut 5y ago
  Spousal support in USA is rare and usually time limited. Laws varry between states, but generally it requires ex-partner to be stay at home for longer periods. As in, you have to have stay at home mom/dad partner for it to kick in. If you don't do traditional she stays at home with kids thing, you won't have to pay it. Because either it was you being at home or she had job too.

bartvk 5y ago

You can pick a great spouse but some people change after kids arrive. My partner had a great work ethic too. But after our daughter was born, that supposedly great work ethic caused them to keep working at the same pace, destroying our relationship. Admittedly, you also mention "bad at relationships" and that element was present on both sides as well.

Arisaka1 5y ago
There are people who "change" even after marriage. My father had one such experience when he decided to get married again and his new wife asked him to put her in the house contract as an equal owner. He didn't take that well because, she asked barely a week after the marriage. For what it's worth, that was his second attempt to marry someone after he broke up with my mother. The first was with a woman who hated me in absurd levels to the point that she would attempt to choke me and throw knives at me because (according to my father, I was too young to actually engage her in any form of discussion) I reminded her of his previous relationship. And all that happened after 4 years of him being in a casual relationship with her. Anyways, I don't know if I would call it changing or rather that there are people who try to hide their true colors until I get what they want.
- touisteur 5y ago
  Talk about some people needing psychiatric containment. I hope this doesn't hurt too much now as an adult. It surely wasn't your fault in any way.
- watwut 5y ago
  > she would attempt to choke me and throw knives at me because (according to my father, I was too young to actually engage her in any form of discussion) I reminded her of his previous relationship. And all that happened after 4 years of him being in a casual relationship with her. May I suggest that it is highly unlikely there were no warning signs. This level of violence does not come out of nowhere (neither in women nor in men). It tends to consequence of escalations. The hate toward the offspring itself should have been seen as warning sign. Like, yes, dad is there victim of domestic violence too. But like with women who pick yet another abuser again, there is issue with partner selection, not knowing warning signs or interpreting them as passion or some variant of that.

laurent92 5y ago

If it’s reproducible, it stops being single examples. All your other sentences are variations of “Man up”. In our society, we are used to seeing people getting at least vocal support when things get hard, harassment at work, inability to ask for higher pay, etc. We just forget that, when it’s men, the advice is “Ok maybe work gave you trust issues, but have you tried to man up? Why would you expect support from a spouse if you, yourself, aren’t self-supported?” It defeats the idea of “he for she, she for he.”

MathCodeLove 5y ago
I agree that men do face some unique social challenges, but none of those are present here. Yes, why should you expect support from a spouse if you aren't doing anything for yourself? This goes for men and women. Of course both parties should be allowed moments of vulnerability, but I thought it was pretty cleat that my statements were in the context of a long-term struggle. If my wife gets fired and has a bad week, I'll be there to support her and would expect the same in return. If she has a bad month, we'll sit down and have a serious talk about what she needs to do going forward. If the only support you're getting is "man up" then maybe you should find yourself a different social circle and/or partner. "He for she, she for he" means just that. It explicitly does not mean "He for she even when she isn't there for she, she for he even when he isn't there for he". If you expect people to "support" you whilst you make no personal effort then perhaps you should reevaluate your outlook on life as a whole. That isn't how things should work in a healthy relationship.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
vasco 5y ago
Everyone would be better off if they just tried a little bit harder to be more mentally resilient. I don't understand people who act like suggesting this is wrong. Sometimes people need help, and sometimes they just need to deal with it because nobody else can for them. Not saying this is just hiding the truth.

touisteur 5y ago

Eerrrr. I know you mean well and I agree with 'choosing your partner' and it might be the most important of your choices in life. But. Losing a job can be utterly crushing and depressing. Bringing work ethic in what might be late triggered burnout or full on depression doesn't seem helpful as a partner. Yes, some people are lazy, but of your partner had a job they were doing with success or at least what you might consider 'work ethics' and then loses it, and can't muster 'putting themselves out there' there might something else you can do to help, rather than divorce? Therapy? Helping with finding a job? Some years ago, I burned out, and was asked by my doctor to stay home, and this was followed by crushing depression. I was broken for months until I pieced myself back together, with help (therapy, meds, spending time with my kids...). My spouse says she was afraid I was lost, not going bacl to work, afraid I'd be broken forever. Thank heavens she just didn't ditch my ass, she helped me back and I'm watching myself more than ever, because I don't want that to happen twice. Seeing the person you love falling apart in such a way (depression, burnout) can tempt you to reevaluate the person as a whole. But if you can't stay and help when I'm broken, what kind of partner are you? Sure there's a limit, and everyone must draw a line somewhere (and I'm pretty sure I decided mine before we married), but losing one's job isn't there for me.

hycaria 5y ago
You skimmed the second part of the sentence. "my wife lost her job and showed no motivation to get another one"
- touisteur 5y ago
  I didn't skim it. It was precisely that part that prompted my comment. There is no indication of 'why' she might show no motivation. The assumption here seems to be that she's a freerider, a burden, and not a partner with motivation issues. And I cited good reasons for lacking motivation. From personal experience. Yes, there are people that become lazy, or show their laziness after some time hiding it behind an easy 0-producing job. And yes sometimes you discover that you don't like that in your partner and maybe you're now too different, etc. But this hustle mentality, don't stop and think, just find a job, any job, gogogogogogogogogo, isn't how I want to be treated when laid off or broken in some way. There's a lot of talk on HN about mental health, burnout, depression, but also lots of people that seem to be OK to ditch a partner at the first sign of him or her not being 100% 'on' all the time. There's many discussions to be had when you realize your partner doesn't want to work anymore. The first one is probably 'downsizing' as fast as possible. Can we live on one salary? How much time? What do we let go to weather this? Do you think it's temporary, do you want to switch careers? Are you ready to lose those comforts? Are you thinking about the near future? Do you have plans? Do I sit in them? do you want to try therapy? Maybe not all the questions on the same day. Decisions, together. And red lines if you must. Money, kids, health. Yours and your partners. I was just saying, maybe someone you trusted and observed having fine work ethics (if that's what floats your boat) changing suddenly, is maybe sign of a problem you were supposed to be helping with, as the other person in this relationship.

ajuc 5y ago

If a lot of people are shitty in the same way we can try to find out what causes that and fix it. There's a reason "you're not a real women" isn't an insult, but "you're not a real man" is. There's a reason men live 3-10% shorter than women and commit suicide several times more often (in my country 8 times more often). And there's a reason divorce law is absurdly sexist. This is not to say "women are evil", there's no secret conspiracy to reinforce the gender roles, no "matriarchy" nor "patriarchy" keeping the status quo. It's simply people repeating what they were taught about life to their children because "that's the way it should be". So the fix isn't to "find better spouses", the fix is to make people better human beings and live the way they want.

pjc50 5y ago
> no "matriarchy" nor "patriarchy" keeping the status quo. It's simply people repeating what they were taught about life to their children because "that's the way it should be". That is the "patriarchy". It was never claimed to be a Dr Evil thing.
- ajuc 5y ago
  Well, the way it's portrayed in some feminist propaganda it's a club of old white guys keeping everybody else down. Also calling it "patriarchy" when it hurts both genders equally and is reinforced by both genders equally - is counterproductive.
  - pjc50 5y ago
    What would you prefer to call it?
    - ajuc 5y ago
      Harmful gender stereotypes? Culturally enforced strict gender roles? Something like that. Another related concept in feminism is "toxic masculinity" and that name is even worse. If you're trying to solve a problem don't start by naming it "it's all their faultism". Curiously I've never heard anybody call the same phenomenon happening to women "toxic femininity".

dennis_jeeves 5y ago

>You say this like it's an inevitable part of life instead of picking just picking bad spouses or being bad at relationships. This means that most people will end up being single, which is a actually a good thing in the long run.

thatjoeoverthr 5y ago

People, generally, get married when they’re confident they found a good spouse and not a shitty one. It’s ok to empathize with people who get dumped or divorced unfairly. Especially in certain countries where the process is so destructive. Empathy isn’t a crime.

goodpoint 5y ago

> Maybe instead of complaining about "gender roles" complain about people picking shitty spouses No need for the whataboutism: gender roles exists and are deeply entrenched in some societies. A simple measure is how often divorces end with the ex-husband having to pay spousal support to the ex-wife and not the other way around. This is a clear indication of how the legal system expects men to be "providers" and, therefore, woman careers and financial independence to be less important.

watwut 5y ago
Spousal support in USA is rare and usually time limited. Laws varry between states, but generally it requires ex-partner to be stay at home for longer periods. As in, you have to have stay at home mom/dad partner for it to kick in. If you don't do traditional she stays at home with kids thing, you won't have to pay it. Because either it was you being at home or she had job too.