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I think it's fair to say though that even if you don't have a throwaway culture, apple certainly has a throwaway culture and has been cultivating it in their us

I think it's fair to say though that even if you don't have a throwaway culture, apple certainly has a throwaway culture and has been cultivating it in their users heavily (often by integrating their devices more than is necessary). Seems you managed to escape their wiles but many haven't.

emsy 5y ago
No I think there are certain aspects about Apple products that are definitely not throwaway culture, mainly software support. The hardware is also holding up really long (I also use a MBP 2013, I have several iPhone 6s users in my family). The main issue is that in case of defects, repairs are not economical and I wish Apple would recognize that. Given the long viability of hard and software, I have reasonable doubt to believe it’s a decision made to maximize profit, but rather a legacy Jony Ive sized blind spot.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
Grustaf 5y ago
Apple makes hardware that is extremely durable, I and others use MacBooks that are getting close to 10 years old. I really doubt people will use the Framework for longer. The main reason people buy new phones and macbooks is not that the old ones stop working, it's that the new ones are desirable, they are even slicker than the one you've got.
- NotPractical 5y ago
  AirPods die within a few years and then get tossed in the trash. Modern MacBooks aren't built like they used to be. I don't see any reason you couldn't use the Framework Laptop for that long. Just replace anything that wears down over time.
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    My 2016 MPB is in perfect shape, except the keyboard that was overly sensitive to dirt from the outset. Not sure if that counts as modern? My new MBA seems extremely well built too, not sure what you are referring to. Using my airpods pro at least 5 hours a day since they were released, also perfect shape. Like the AirPods 2 i handed down. I'm sure they won't last forever, but they've already provided a hell of a lot of usage for 200 bucks.
    - NotPractical 5y ago
      How is the battery life on your 2016 MBP? Like I said in one of my other posts, my 2019's battery is already slowly degrading. I'm at ~300 charge cycles after ~2 years of moderate usage. Apple says the battery is "consumed" after 1000 cycles[1], so it seems my battery is already 30% consumed, which doesn't make me very hopeful for the longevity of this device. I wish it was easier to find actual data on battery life of 2016+ MBP models. Googling for "how long does MacBook Pro battery last" yields mostly useless results. There's a macOS app called "Coconut Battery" that tracks battery health over time, with an optional reporting feature that uploads the data to a server for comparison purposes.[2] Unfortunately the online viewer only allows you to view data by each individual model. It might be more helpful to aggregate the data from all 2016+ models, since the battery is the same, afaik. The online viewer also doesn't show how many reports the averages are based on. I wonder if it would be possible to scrape their data, to produce an evidence-based answer to the question "how long will my MacBook probably last?", rather than relying mostly on anecdotal evidence from Mac users. Anyway, I think the idea that a $1300-$6500+ laptop ships with a glued-in, non-replaceable component that Apple themselves admits is "consumable" is just absurd, regardless of how long it may last. [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201585 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201585 [2] https://www.coconut-flavour.com/ccbonline https://www.coconut-flavour.com/ccbonline
      - Grustaf 5y ago
        The battery life was never stellar, compared to previous and of course current Airs, but my daughter can use it a full school day without plugging in. >Anyway, I think the idea that a $1300-$6500+ laptop ships with a glued-in, non-replaceable component that Apple themselves admits is "consumable" is just absurd, regardless of how long it may last. This is where my view differs, since I can just hand it in for replacement, I don't have any issues with that. To me it doesn't matter at all if I can do it myself or not. Well except if you have to leave it at the Apple store for several days, then that's very inconvenient. In general I just see it as a practical and financial question, and since I use my laptop 10 hours a day, and earn a very good salary from it, 200 dollars more or less every three years is really insignificant.
- gorjusborg 5y ago
  Yeah, that's the where the culture part comes in. Apple adds features in attempt to lure people to 'upgrade' from a nearly identical product. Touchbar, face-id, 'apple silicon'. Most of this stuff doesn't change the value proposition of the core product. I'd say that the majority of Apple's user base is largely there for status reasons, and those people upgrade to keep the status they feel the brand grants them. As someone who isn't an Apple fan, but who uses some of their products, I am very aware there are exceptions, but I'd suspect that, like me, these exceptions also don't follow the press release driven upgrade cycle. It's this type of consumerism that I'm personally not interested in. I want a tool, I want it be under my control. I want to be able to maintain it for its natural useful lifetime. That thinking does not belong in the culture Apple is fostering. (Edit: and yeah, I get that Apple isn't the only culprit here, it's just that if a company seems to be fostering a culture that fits my ideals, I'm willing to compromise on 'slickness')
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    Apple Silicon was a very significant upgrade, my M1 Air is just insane. It's a ridiculously good computer. But if you want a tool, why do you want it to be "under your control"? I think most people are more like me, I just want a really nice computer that works well, I have exactly zero desire to replace the RAM or upgrade the SSD. For phones the
    - gorjusborg 5y ago
      I own an M1 Air. It is a macbook, and seems fine so far, but it's over-hyped. I'll agree that it seems that currently most people are like you. They don't think about maintainability when it comes to belongings. If they care about the effects their actions have on the environment, they might want to start. If you are buying a new phone and laptop every two years, where are you putting the old one? What happens to the toxic materials in the batteries? Did you need to have a new machined aluminum shell, or could you have just replaced the part that was bad inside it? That all said, I don't have any illusions about changing the course of the average person's thoughts or habits via an HN post. Like I said in the original post, I'm done with buying throwaway goods if I have an alternative. I'm happy that an option like the framework exists.
uuddlrlr 5y ago
iPhones have incredible longevity and Apple is still supporting the 5s (2013, gets security patches) and 6s (2014, receiving iOS 15). I also have a 2008 MacBook and it's a treat considering its age.

emsy 5y ago

No I think there are certain aspects about Apple products that are definitely not throwaway culture, mainly software support. The hardware is also holding up really long (I also use a MBP 2013, I have several iPhone 6s users in my family). The main issue is that in case of defects, repairs are not economical and I wish Apple would recognize that. Given the long viability of hard and software, I have reasonable doubt to believe it’s a decision made to maximize profit, but rather a legacy Jony Ive sized blind spot.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

Grustaf 5y ago

Apple makes hardware that is extremely durable, I and others use MacBooks that are getting close to 10 years old. I really doubt people will use the Framework for longer. The main reason people buy new phones and macbooks is not that the old ones stop working, it's that the new ones are desirable, they are even slicker than the one you've got.

NotPractical 5y ago
AirPods die within a few years and then get tossed in the trash. Modern MacBooks aren't built like they used to be. I don't see any reason you couldn't use the Framework Laptop for that long. Just replace anything that wears down over time.
- Grustaf 5y ago
  My 2016 MPB is in perfect shape, except the keyboard that was overly sensitive to dirt from the outset. Not sure if that counts as modern? My new MBA seems extremely well built too, not sure what you are referring to. Using my airpods pro at least 5 hours a day since they were released, also perfect shape. Like the AirPods 2 i handed down. I'm sure they won't last forever, but they've already provided a hell of a lot of usage for 200 bucks.
  - NotPractical 5y ago
    How is the battery life on your 2016 MBP? Like I said in one of my other posts, my 2019's battery is already slowly degrading. I'm at ~300 charge cycles after ~2 years of moderate usage. Apple says the battery is "consumed" after 1000 cycles[1], so it seems my battery is already 30% consumed, which doesn't make me very hopeful for the longevity of this device. I wish it was easier to find actual data on battery life of 2016+ MBP models. Googling for "how long does MacBook Pro battery last" yields mostly useless results. There's a macOS app called "Coconut Battery" that tracks battery health over time, with an optional reporting feature that uploads the data to a server for comparison purposes.[2] Unfortunately the online viewer only allows you to view data by each individual model. It might be more helpful to aggregate the data from all 2016+ models, since the battery is the same, afaik. The online viewer also doesn't show how many reports the averages are based on. I wonder if it would be possible to scrape their data, to produce an evidence-based answer to the question "how long will my MacBook probably last?", rather than relying mostly on anecdotal evidence from Mac users. Anyway, I think the idea that a $1300-$6500+ laptop ships with a glued-in, non-replaceable component that Apple themselves admits is "consumable" is just absurd, regardless of how long it may last. [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201585 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201585 [2] https://www.coconut-flavour.com/ccbonline https://www.coconut-flavour.com/ccbonline
    - Grustaf 5y ago
      The battery life was never stellar, compared to previous and of course current Airs, but my daughter can use it a full school day without plugging in. >Anyway, I think the idea that a $1300-$6500+ laptop ships with a glued-in, non-replaceable component that Apple themselves admits is "consumable" is just absurd, regardless of how long it may last. This is where my view differs, since I can just hand it in for replacement, I don't have any issues with that. To me it doesn't matter at all if I can do it myself or not. Well except if you have to leave it at the Apple store for several days, then that's very inconvenient. In general I just see it as a practical and financial question, and since I use my laptop 10 hours a day, and earn a very good salary from it, 200 dollars more or less every three years is really insignificant.
gorjusborg 5y ago
Yeah, that's the where the culture part comes in. Apple adds features in attempt to lure people to 'upgrade' from a nearly identical product. Touchbar, face-id, 'apple silicon'. Most of this stuff doesn't change the value proposition of the core product. I'd say that the majority of Apple's user base is largely there for status reasons, and those people upgrade to keep the status they feel the brand grants them. As someone who isn't an Apple fan, but who uses some of their products, I am very aware there are exceptions, but I'd suspect that, like me, these exceptions also don't follow the press release driven upgrade cycle. It's this type of consumerism that I'm personally not interested in. I want a tool, I want it be under my control. I want to be able to maintain it for its natural useful lifetime. That thinking does not belong in the culture Apple is fostering. (Edit: and yeah, I get that Apple isn't the only culprit here, it's just that if a company seems to be fostering a culture that fits my ideals, I'm willing to compromise on 'slickness')
- Grustaf 5y ago
  Apple Silicon was a very significant upgrade, my M1 Air is just insane. It's a ridiculously good computer. But if you want a tool, why do you want it to be "under your control"? I think most people are more like me, I just want a really nice computer that works well, I have exactly zero desire to replace the RAM or upgrade the SSD. For phones the
  - gorjusborg 5y ago
    I own an M1 Air. It is a macbook, and seems fine so far, but it's over-hyped. I'll agree that it seems that currently most people are like you. They don't think about maintainability when it comes to belongings. If they care about the effects their actions have on the environment, they might want to start. If you are buying a new phone and laptop every two years, where are you putting the old one? What happens to the toxic materials in the batteries? Did you need to have a new machined aluminum shell, or could you have just replaced the part that was bad inside it? That all said, I don't have any illusions about changing the course of the average person's thoughts or habits via an HN post. Like I said in the original post, I'm done with buying throwaway goods if I have an alternative. I'm happy that an option like the framework exists.

uuddlrlr 5y ago

iPhones have incredible longevity and Apple is still supporting the 5s (2013, gets security patches) and 6s (2014, receiving iOS 15). I also have a 2008 MacBook and it's a treat considering its age.