4 ms·

>objective criterias, like complexity, balance, off-flavors, aftertaste, presentation Those... simply aren't objective criteria. One persons off-flavor is anot

>objective criterias, like complexity, balance, off-flavors, aftertaste, presentation Those... simply aren't objective criteria. One persons off-flavor is another persons desired flavor (cilantro/coriander for an obvious example). What is the quantitative measure of "complexity" or "balance" in a dish?

moehm 5y ago
I don't say it's really objective, I just say it's way less subjective than one might think. Cilantro is not an off-flavor per se, it's just a flavor you like or don't. A cork tainted wine is an off-flavor. But if you don't like cilantro, it is indeed an off-flavor for you, but that is uninteresting. If I like burned meat, is a medium rare steak flawed for you? > What is the quantitative measure of "complexity" or "balance" in a dish? It's not measured with technology, it's measured with the tongue (+ nose) and experience of the taster. Interestingly, if you give the same dish or wine to real experts, you will probably get identical answers. So there is something there, but you have to get the experience and vocabulary to really judge a dish (or wine, or whatever).
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  > Cilantro is not an off-flavor per se, it's just a flavor you like or don't. A cork tainted wine is an off-flavor. That isn't true at all. The flavor the cork adds is another flavor you like or don't like. People choose their preparation methods for flavor impact just like they choose ingredients for flavor impact. Look at smoked meat!
  - moehm 5y ago
    Eh, no wine maker adds TCA [0] into a wine bottle to make it taste like wet dogs. If you burn your sauce, that's probably an off-flavor. Smoked meat and cilantro taste like intended, no undesired flavors there. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,4,6-Trichloroanisole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,4,6-Trichloroanisole
    - thaumasiotes 5y ago
      > If you burn your sauce, that's probably an off-flavor. Probably, but people burn meat on purpose.
      - Ansil849 5y ago
        > Probably, but people burn meat on purpose. People also sometimes write poor code on purpose.
    - phonypc 5y ago
      I brought up cilantro because I thought it was common-enough knowledge that, for some people, it does not taste like intended and is very much an off-flavor that can ruin an otherwise enjoyable dish.
      - moehm 5y ago
        > for some people, it does not taste like intended Yes, but I still think, this corner case is much better handled at the service level than the dish level. I do know they ask for food allergies before, I do not know if they ask for your cilantro preferences. You can't say (as a critic) "this dish was flawed, because it had cilantro in it", but you can say "I didn't enjoyed it, because it had cilantro in it".
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
diffeomorphism 5y ago
That is confusing off with undesired. In other words "would it still taste like this if the chef had spent more time/effort/money". Cilantro tasting like cilantro -> great. Cilantro tasting like it is old/thawed/burnt -> not great. Taste being "off" is about unintentional deviation.
- phonypc 5y ago
  Disagree. Clear-cut off-flavors are just those people tend to be in alignment about being undesired. (e.g. burnt). The flavor of cilantro can be intentionally present, but it's still an off-flavor for the minority of people who perceive it differently.
  - diffeomorphism 5y ago
    I would say it is an undesired flavor for these people not an off-flavor. And in the same vein I want a restaurant critic to tell me about off-flavors, but don't care if they personally like cilantro or not.

moehm 5y ago

I don't say it's really objective, I just say it's way less subjective than one might think. Cilantro is not an off-flavor per se, it's just a flavor you like or don't. A cork tainted wine is an off-flavor. But if you don't like cilantro, it is indeed an off-flavor for you, but that is uninteresting. If I like burned meat, is a medium rare steak flawed for you? > What is the quantitative measure of "complexity" or "balance" in a dish? It's not measured with technology, it's measured with the tongue (+ nose) and experience of the taster. Interestingly, if you give the same dish or wine to real experts, you will probably get identical answers. So there is something there, but you have to get the experience and vocabulary to really judge a dish (or wine, or whatever).

thaumasiotes 5y ago
> Cilantro is not an off-flavor per se, it's just a flavor you like or don't. A cork tainted wine is an off-flavor. That isn't true at all. The flavor the cork adds is another flavor you like or don't like. People choose their preparation methods for flavor impact just like they choose ingredients for flavor impact. Look at smoked meat!
- moehm 5y ago
  Eh, no wine maker adds TCA [0] into a wine bottle to make it taste like wet dogs. If you burn your sauce, that's probably an off-flavor. Smoked meat and cilantro taste like intended, no undesired flavors there. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,4,6-Trichloroanisole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,4,6-Trichloroanisole
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    > If you burn your sauce, that's probably an off-flavor. Probably, but people burn meat on purpose.
    - Ansil849 5y ago
      > Probably, but people burn meat on purpose. People also sometimes write poor code on purpose.
  - phonypc 5y ago
    I brought up cilantro because I thought it was common-enough knowledge that, for some people, it does not taste like intended and is very much an off-flavor that can ruin an otherwise enjoyable dish.
    - moehm 5y ago
      > for some people, it does not taste like intended Yes, but I still think, this corner case is much better handled at the service level than the dish level. I do know they ask for food allergies before, I do not know if they ask for your cilantro preferences. You can't say (as a critic) "this dish was flawed, because it had cilantro in it", but you can say "I didn't enjoyed it, because it had cilantro in it".
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

diffeomorphism 5y ago

That is confusing off with undesired. In other words "would it still taste like this if the chef had spent more time/effort/money". Cilantro tasting like cilantro -> great. Cilantro tasting like it is old/thawed/burnt -> not great. Taste being "off" is about unintentional deviation.

phonypc 5y ago
Disagree. Clear-cut off-flavors are just those people tend to be in alignment about being undesired. (e.g. burnt). The flavor of cilantro can be intentionally present, but it's still an off-flavor for the minority of people who perceive it differently.
- diffeomorphism 5y ago
  I would say it is an undesired flavor for these people not an off-flavor. And in the same vein I want a restaurant critic to tell me about off-flavors, but don't care if they personally like cilantro or not.