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The multiple warnings and the dialogue that explicitly requires confirmation might be a good hint. But I think we all know this problem hasn't materialized in

The multiple warnings and the dialogue that explicitly requires confirmation might be a good hint. But I think we all know this problem hasn't materialized in crash data, because if it did, that's what we'd be talking about. Instead it's just more FUD about the names of features, some of which are explicitly not yet delivered.

romwell 5y ago
The problem didn't materialize in crash data, eh? It absolutely did. Why we're not talking about it is another issue. https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2020/02/25/ntsb-teslas-autopilot-steered-model-x-into-highway-median-causing-fatal-mountain-view-crash https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2020/02/25/ntsb-teslas-a...
- moduspol 5y ago
  Are Tesla's cars with Autopilot involved in fatal crashes at a notably higher rate than comparable cars? If the answer were "yes," you wouldn't be pointing me to anecdotes. You'd be pointing me to that data. The lack of that data is why, despite years, hundreds of thousands of vehicles, and millions upon millions of miles driven, people are still blaming the names of features. It's time to move on. Over 100 people die in the US per day in traffic accidents. How many years need to pass before a handful of anecdotes and speculation doesn't pass as valid criticism?
  - stefan_ 5y ago
    Yes, why do we care that Boeing withheld crucial information about the MCAS? Is two crashed planes a lot compared to other plane models? Why do we determine the root cause for every crashed plane, there aren't a lot of those anymore? There is statistics, and then there is addressing obvious design flaws. The latter is worth doing a lot more than the former.
  - romwell 5y ago
    >Are Tesla's cars with Autopilot involved in fatal crashes at a notably higher rate than comparable cars? The answer is yes [1]. >It's time to move on That time will be when the self-driving cars can safely elf-drive -- which is not now. [1]https://www.natlawreview.com/article/dangers-driverless-cars https://www.natlawreview.com/article/dangers-driverless-cars
    - yazaddaruvala 5y ago
      This article is using data from 2015. In this industry that is basically meaningless. Given the staleness, I didn’t look more into the data cited. Natlawreview links to Carsurance which links to https://www.govtech.com/fs/first-driverless-car-crash-study-autonomous-vehicles-crash-more-injuries-are-less-serious.html https://www.govtech.com/fs/first-driverless-car-crash-study-...
      - romwell 5y ago
        If you have better data, be my guest. I'm not the one making a claim that self-driving cars are safer. The burden of proof is on whoever does.
        yazaddaruvala 5y ago
        While biased towards Tesla cars, at least this is updated “regularly”. https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport
- mwint 5y ago
  There’s a difference between instances and data. GP is saying that if someone had a damning graph of large-scale statistically-significant data showing AP is crashing more, we’d be talking about it.
  - romwell 5y ago
    We do have this data. Here are your damning statistics: self-driving cars have a higher rate of accidents and fatalities per mile driven than human-driven cars [1]. [1]https://www.natlawreview.com/article/dangers-driverless-cars https://www.natlawreview.com/article/dangers-driverless-cars
    - belltaco 5y ago
      Can you point to the actual stats on that page? I skimmed and went to their Carsurance source link and it was garbage, even admitting that they were counting mistakes by other drivers causing issues like being rear ended and sideswiped as incidents against the self driving cars. And somewhere one of the articles said there were less fatalities during active driver assistance.
FireBeyond 5y ago
Do you know why steering wheel torque every 15 seconds is required? Because before regulators told them to fix it, Tesla believed the driver only needed to be checked on every _quarter hour_.

romwell 5y ago

The problem didn't materialize in crash data, eh? It absolutely did. Why we're not talking about it is another issue. https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2020/02/25/ntsb-teslas-autopilot-steered-model-x-into-highway-median-causing-fatal-mountain-view-crash https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2020/02/25/ntsb-teslas-a...

moduspol 5y ago
Are Tesla's cars with Autopilot involved in fatal crashes at a notably higher rate than comparable cars? If the answer were "yes," you wouldn't be pointing me to anecdotes. You'd be pointing me to that data. The lack of that data is why, despite years, hundreds of thousands of vehicles, and millions upon millions of miles driven, people are still blaming the names of features. It's time to move on. Over 100 people die in the US per day in traffic accidents. How many years need to pass before a handful of anecdotes and speculation doesn't pass as valid criticism?
- stefan_ 5y ago
  Yes, why do we care that Boeing withheld crucial information about the MCAS? Is two crashed planes a lot compared to other plane models? Why do we determine the root cause for every crashed plane, there aren't a lot of those anymore? There is statistics, and then there is addressing obvious design flaws. The latter is worth doing a lot more than the former.
- romwell 5y ago
  >Are Tesla's cars with Autopilot involved in fatal crashes at a notably higher rate than comparable cars? The answer is yes [1]. >It's time to move on That time will be when the self-driving cars can safely elf-drive -- which is not now. [1]https://www.natlawreview.com/article/dangers-driverless-cars https://www.natlawreview.com/article/dangers-driverless-cars
  - yazaddaruvala 5y ago
    This article is using data from 2015. In this industry that is basically meaningless. Given the staleness, I didn’t look more into the data cited. Natlawreview links to Carsurance which links to https://www.govtech.com/fs/first-driverless-car-crash-study-autonomous-vehicles-crash-more-injuries-are-less-serious.html https://www.govtech.com/fs/first-driverless-car-crash-study-...
    - romwell 5y ago
      If you have better data, be my guest. I'm not the one making a claim that self-driving cars are safer. The burden of proof is on whoever does.
      - yazaddaruvala 5y ago
        While biased towards Tesla cars, at least this is updated “regularly”. https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport
mwint 5y ago
There’s a difference between instances and data. GP is saying that if someone had a damning graph of large-scale statistically-significant data showing AP is crashing more, we’d be talking about it.
- romwell 5y ago
  We do have this data. Here are your damning statistics: self-driving cars have a higher rate of accidents and fatalities per mile driven than human-driven cars [1]. [1]https://www.natlawreview.com/article/dangers-driverless-cars https://www.natlawreview.com/article/dangers-driverless-cars
  - belltaco 5y ago
    Can you point to the actual stats on that page? I skimmed and went to their Carsurance source link and it was garbage, even admitting that they were counting mistakes by other drivers causing issues like being rear ended and sideswiped as incidents against the self driving cars. And somewhere one of the articles said there were less fatalities during active driver assistance.

FireBeyond 5y ago

Do you know why steering wheel torque every 15 seconds is required? Because before regulators told them to fix it, Tesla believed the driver only needed to be checked on every _quarter hour_.