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For the record, I also own a Mac: the MacBook Pro, 2019 baseline model. I used to enjoy the battery life (though it has been slowly getting worse to the point w

For the record, I also own a Mac: the MacBook Pro, 2019 baseline model. I used to enjoy the battery life (though it has been slowly getting worse to the point where I have considered reaching out to Apple about it since the battery is glued in and I can't replace it myself). I like the metal body. I also like macOS. My MacBook is not completely silent because it's an Intel mac, but the M1 would be, that's true. As far as "better screen", I'm not so sure... on paper, the resolution is nearly the same. I also like the trackpad. But anyway, you need to decide whether these things are worth the complete lack of repairability. As a reminder, your Mac's battery will die at some point, and your Mac will become useless. I'm seriously considering selling my MBP and buying this instead.

gorjusborg 5y ago
Word, I'm pretty fed up with throw-away culture, especially with big ticket items. I've used pretty much all the developer laptop contenders as daily drivers at some point. You get used to what you get used to, so marginally better isn't so important, I've found. I'm going to pick one of the framework laptops because they look decent, but my secondary objective is to support a company that at least is walking some of the walk I want to see.
- aix1 5y ago
  > I'm pretty fed up with throw-away culture, especially with big ticket items. I love what Framework are doing, but integrated hardware does not immediately equal throwaway culture (saying as something who still uses their late 2013 MacBook Pro).
  - eredengrin 5y ago
    I think it's fair to say though that even if you don't have a throwaway culture, apple certainly has a throwaway culture and has been cultivating it in their users heavily (often by integrating their devices more than is necessary). Seems you managed to escape their wiles but many haven't.
    - emsy 5y ago
      No I think there are certain aspects about Apple products that are definitely not throwaway culture, mainly software support. The hardware is also holding up really long (I also use a MBP 2013, I have several iPhone 6s users in my family). The main issue is that in case of defects, repairs are not economical and I wish Apple would recognize that. Given the long viability of hard and software, I have reasonable doubt to believe it’s a decision made to maximize profit, but rather a legacy Jony Ive sized blind spot.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - Grustaf 5y ago
      Apple makes hardware that is extremely durable, I and others use MacBooks that are getting close to 10 years old. I really doubt people will use the Framework for longer. The main reason people buy new phones and macbooks is not that the old ones stop working, it's that the new ones are desirable, they are even slicker than the one you've got.
      - NotPractical 5y ago
        AirPods die within a few years and then get tossed in the trash. Modern MacBooks aren't built like they used to be. I don't see any reason you couldn't use the Framework Laptop for that long. Just replace anything that wears down over time.
        Grustaf 5y ago
        My 2016 MPB is in perfect shape, except the keyboard that was overly sensitive to dirt from the outset. Not sure if that counts as modern? My new MBA seems extremely well built too, not sure what you are referring to. Using my airpods pro at least 5 hours a day since they were released, also perfect shape. Like the AirPods 2 i handed down. I'm sure they won't last forever, but they've already provided a hell of a lot of usage for 200 bucks.
Matthias1 5y ago
This is a good point. "Repairability" is a lot less important to me than lifetime. Right now, I have a MacBook with AppleCare. The author's criticism with AppleCare is that it can take a week for Apple to repair the computer. That's reasonable for me. So the real test of the Framework computer is not in the first week. (Although the initial impression is very impressive!) The real test is whether I can, 3 years after buying the computer, replace the battery more easily than Apple could replace the battery in a Mac. Modular hardware is limited by the availability of the parts, and Framework doesn't have the brand to convince me that they'll be around for longer than I can get my computer serviced by Apple.
- NotPractical 5y ago
  Does anyone know if Apple is even capable of replacing the battery, or if they replace the entire top case assembly, on 2016+ MacBook Pro models? Apparently the Air's battery is indeed replaceable (...by Apple) but I'm not sure the Pro's is, which is incredibly wasteful, if true.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  > The real test is whether I can, 3 years after buying the computer, replace the battery more easily than Apple could replace the battery in a Mac No, the real test is whether you, 3 years after buying the computer, can replace the battery more easily than you could replace it on the Mac. Applecare just covers the cost of a new laptop when your Mac breaks during warranty. "Repair" is a generous way of putting that.
- NotPractical 5y ago
  Another thing to consider is that, if everyone is reluctant to try the Framework laptop because they're not sure about long-term support, it will never receive said support. I'm willing to take the risk here, for the greater good! I don't even perceive the risk to be that high, to be honest.
  - beckman466 5y ago
    > if everyone is reluctant to try the Framework laptop because they're not sure about long-term support, it will never receive said support. I'm willing to take the risk here, for the greater good! I dunno, this whole idea of 'trickle down innovation' that ends up coming at the expense of the working class is a very bad deal when you consider the amount of advanced technologies available today yet which have been enclosed/commoditized as 'intellectual property'. Another example is Musk's scammy 'secret master plan' hustle that tells a feel good (yet misleading) story to the propertied class that they should 'buy a $170,000 Tesla to help make mass produced Tesla's possible for poor people'. Which is a rich story when you see that big oil companies, together with governments, suppressed viable electric car technologies for years ('Who Killed The Electric Car?' documentary). My point is that these are deep systemic issues that should be remedied at their root, instead of them being presented as something the non-propertied -class should plan and pay for, especially when you consider that we have actually already paid for it (remember we gave them those big juicy low-interest government loans). At this point in time, buying a modular laptop like a Framework computer should have no risks involved with it. We need to just grow many more open source standards. All that proprietary hardware and software does is remove valuable feedback loops and lessons from the commons. It criminalizes cooperation, interoperability, repairing and repurposing. Only the propertied class wins here. All the above arguments only compound and multiply when you consider that most of the technology that exists today was developed with taxpayer backed government loans (Mazzucato: The Entrepreneurial State), meaning that, as she puts it, "we have ended up creating an ‘innovation system’ whereby the public sector socializes risks, while rewards are privatized".
BoorishBears 5y ago
In years past you had to bring up the MBP but now the Macbook Air tips the scales. I got my 16 GB Macbook Air for $1000 at Microcenter. For development purposes it's the same as a Pro, except it doesn't have a fan (and has never throttled) and doesn't have a touch bar (which is great) The MBA is an insane value with the advent of the M1, a complete turnaround from the old days. Also it has a trick up it's sleeve when it comes to this: > the complete lack of repairability. As a reminder, your Mac's battery will die at some point, and your Mac will become useless. First off, Apple will replace the battery in a MBA for $129 (vs $200 for the MBP), so a little alarmist... But more importantly the new Air uses stretch-release adhesive (think command strips) and doesn't require removing the logic board for battery replacements. The MBP didn't inherent this improvement. It's no Framework but it makes it the value proposition that much sweeter...
- infinityplus1 5y ago
  The M1 Macbooks also allegedly have issues for which people need to file class action lawsuits: Class-action lawsuit filed for M1 MacBook screen cracks [U] https://9to5mac.com/2021/09/16/class-action-lawsuit-screen-cracks/ https://9to5mac.com/2021/09/16/class-action-lawsuit-screen-c...
  - crubier 5y ago
    Of course a laptop sold in 10s of millions will have more problem than a laptop sold 1000x less...
- Joeri 5y ago
  The battery is indeed doable, but the keyboard and screen on the macbook air are more of a challenge, although the parts shouldn’t be hard to find in a few years. With the Framework laptop those parts are easy to replace but bespoke, so framework’s repairability will be determined by parts availability in half a decade.
pvarangot 5y ago
> I'm seriously considering selling my MBP and buying this instead Apple's trade-in program is pretty good. My 2012 MacBook Pro was still tradeable in 2019 for something like 400 bucks. I would consider that also if you don't want to abandon the Apple ecosystem. Before having to use a Mac for work I preferred a P53 and an X1 as work laptops, but honestly now that I'm forced to use macOS again I don't miss Linux at all. Would be great to be able to choose though, but I'm kinda locked on Xcode because it's our build system.
- OJFord 5y ago
  Do they go arbitrarily far back, or cut off at some point? (I have a 2013 Air I've barely used for years... Should've thought of it sooner.) The site just lists model names for the Macs, which is oddly non-granular compared to the iPhones by number: https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/trade-in https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/trade-in
  - pvarangot 5y ago
    There's an estimator below where it says "Select your device for an estimate", and it walks you through a serial number thing and then gives you an accurate estimate. I think it does cut off at a point but I'm not sure when, and it's not the same for all devices.
for1nner 5y ago
Agree with everything said here, as a MBP user (2010->2015->16->19) for the last however many years (PC before then and as a secondary now) The closed ecosystem and continued hardening of even access to inside of my machine is troubling and obviously anti-consumer. Those points coupled with the lack of even 32GB of RAM in an M1 model (not to mention the cost of the brand) makes my next computer a probably-not-apple machine.
Grustaf 5y ago
> As a reminder, your Mac's battery will die at some point, and your Mac will become useless. You can replace the battery yourself for like 50 bucks, or have Apple do it for 2-3x that. We have MacBooks from 2013 in perfect working order at home.
- andersonvom 5y ago
  You technically can, in 66 easy steps and about 1-3 hours [1], all the while risking damaging your laptop. Compare that with 3-6 minutes [2] for the actually replaceable battery on the Framework. [1]: https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Pro+15-Inch+Touch+Bar+2019+Battery+Replacement/124182 https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Pro+15-Inch+Touch+Bar+2... [2]: https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Battery+Replacement+Guide/85 https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Battery+Replacement+Guide/85
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    I did it on two old MBAs in under an hour, never tried with the touch bar mac. My 2016 touchbar MBP13 still has an excellent battery though. Also, amortised over 3-4 years of use I don't really see why it matters if it takes 1 or 3 hours. I'll take a 2 mm thinner computer any day.
    - npongratz 5y ago
      Replacing batteries for MBAs and MBPs are completely different experiences. I did the same with an MBA, replacing its battery in less than an hour by virtue of the battery not being glued to the case, nor having to worry about hidden clips built into the case, nor having to carefully dig out the guts of the system and putting them back together. The MBP is in a totally different class -- as iFixit shows, you don't start removing the battery until step 51! And they're not kidding: to get to the battery, you have to do things like remove the trackpad assembly and pry out the logic board assembly. Sure, you can amortize the 1-3 hours of labor over years of device ownership, but at every step, you're dealing with delicate parts, putting you in danger of turning your expensive, trusty daily driver into a brick. Batteries are a wear item, guaranteed to have to be replaced. Apple's managers, designers, and engineers could show more empathy for their customers by making it easier and less risky to replace their wear items.
brailsafe 5y ago
I also have the 2019 MBP, although not base model because I'm not a monster. Didn't the base model that year still have like a 128g SSD or something comically small? (I'm only jokingly being judgemental here, although it does baffle me why someone wouldn't upgrade at least a tiny bit to a level of practically if you had the choice to buy the computer in the first place) I'm kind of satisfied but not pleased at all with it, and I only have it because my 2018 non-touchbar model had a hardware issue which they replaced it with, and the 2013 model before that was stolen. It's marginally uograded to a 256gb SSD and 16gb of ram. I'm not pleased, specifically because of how loud the damn thing is. I was able to score a deal on an old gaming PC that runs quieter (or at least less annoying) on more demanding tasks, meanwhile I can't browse Instagram or watch video without creating a ridiculous noise. The 2013 model did not have this problem, and yes I'll acknowledge that video is a demanding task and modern websites are garbage, but cmon.
- NotPractical 5y ago
  I did at least upgrade to 256 GB storage (...for like $200 or something ridiculous), haha. I just didn't think to mention that minor upgrade. Edit: I'll also mention that the fan noise hasn't been a problem for me (I rarely notice it), but that may be because I don't use too many demanding programs.
  - brailsafe 5y ago
    Ah I see. A friend of mine who definitely has the money and makes it as a developer bought the real base model with baseline storage, and it's a bit funny how little he can do with it. With 256 it gets me by most of the time, but I'm out of luck if I need VMs or games really. I can pick one. Didn't have the budget at the time to upgrade past that though, for the absurd prices you stated. Sometimes the fans will spin up in the middle of the night for some kernel process presumably.

gorjusborg 5y ago

Word, I'm pretty fed up with throw-away culture, especially with big ticket items. I've used pretty much all the developer laptop contenders as daily drivers at some point. You get used to what you get used to, so marginally better isn't so important, I've found. I'm going to pick one of the framework laptops because they look decent, but my secondary objective is to support a company that at least is walking some of the walk I want to see.

aix1 5y ago
> I'm pretty fed up with throw-away culture, especially with big ticket items. I love what Framework are doing, but integrated hardware does not immediately equal throwaway culture (saying as something who still uses their late 2013 MacBook Pro).
- eredengrin 5y ago
  I think it's fair to say though that even if you don't have a throwaway culture, apple certainly has a throwaway culture and has been cultivating it in their users heavily (often by integrating their devices more than is necessary). Seems you managed to escape their wiles but many haven't.
  - emsy 5y ago
    No I think there are certain aspects about Apple products that are definitely not throwaway culture, mainly software support. The hardware is also holding up really long (I also use a MBP 2013, I have several iPhone 6s users in my family). The main issue is that in case of defects, repairs are not economical and I wish Apple would recognize that. Given the long viability of hard and software, I have reasonable doubt to believe it’s a decision made to maximize profit, but rather a legacy Jony Ive sized blind spot.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    Apple makes hardware that is extremely durable, I and others use MacBooks that are getting close to 10 years old. I really doubt people will use the Framework for longer. The main reason people buy new phones and macbooks is not that the old ones stop working, it's that the new ones are desirable, they are even slicker than the one you've got.
    - NotPractical 5y ago
      AirPods die within a few years and then get tossed in the trash. Modern MacBooks aren't built like they used to be. I don't see any reason you couldn't use the Framework Laptop for that long. Just replace anything that wears down over time.
      - Grustaf 5y ago
        My 2016 MPB is in perfect shape, except the keyboard that was overly sensitive to dirt from the outset. Not sure if that counts as modern? My new MBA seems extremely well built too, not sure what you are referring to. Using my airpods pro at least 5 hours a day since they were released, also perfect shape. Like the AirPods 2 i handed down. I'm sure they won't last forever, but they've already provided a hell of a lot of usage for 200 bucks.

Matthias1 5y ago

This is a good point. "Repairability" is a lot less important to me than lifetime. Right now, I have a MacBook with AppleCare. The author's criticism with AppleCare is that it can take a week for Apple to repair the computer. That's reasonable for me. So the real test of the Framework computer is not in the first week. (Although the initial impression is very impressive!) The real test is whether I can, 3 years after buying the computer, replace the battery more easily than Apple could replace the battery in a Mac. Modular hardware is limited by the availability of the parts, and Framework doesn't have the brand to convince me that they'll be around for longer than I can get my computer serviced by Apple.

NotPractical 5y ago
Does anyone know if Apple is even capable of replacing the battery, or if they replace the entire top case assembly, on 2016+ MacBook Pro models? Apparently the Air's battery is indeed replaceable (...by Apple) but I'm not sure the Pro's is, which is incredibly wasteful, if true.
smoldesu 5y ago
> The real test is whether I can, 3 years after buying the computer, replace the battery more easily than Apple could replace the battery in a Mac No, the real test is whether you, 3 years after buying the computer, can replace the battery more easily than you could replace it on the Mac. Applecare just covers the cost of a new laptop when your Mac breaks during warranty. "Repair" is a generous way of putting that.
NotPractical 5y ago
Another thing to consider is that, if everyone is reluctant to try the Framework laptop because they're not sure about long-term support, it will never receive said support. I'm willing to take the risk here, for the greater good! I don't even perceive the risk to be that high, to be honest.
- beckman466 5y ago
  > if everyone is reluctant to try the Framework laptop because they're not sure about long-term support, it will never receive said support. I'm willing to take the risk here, for the greater good! I dunno, this whole idea of 'trickle down innovation' that ends up coming at the expense of the working class is a very bad deal when you consider the amount of advanced technologies available today yet which have been enclosed/commoditized as 'intellectual property'. Another example is Musk's scammy 'secret master plan' hustle that tells a feel good (yet misleading) story to the propertied class that they should 'buy a $170,000 Tesla to help make mass produced Tesla's possible for poor people'. Which is a rich story when you see that big oil companies, together with governments, suppressed viable electric car technologies for years ('Who Killed The Electric Car?' documentary). My point is that these are deep systemic issues that should be remedied at their root, instead of them being presented as something the non-propertied -class should plan and pay for, especially when you consider that we have actually already paid for it (remember we gave them those big juicy low-interest government loans). At this point in time, buying a modular laptop like a Framework computer should have no risks involved with it. We need to just grow many more open source standards. All that proprietary hardware and software does is remove valuable feedback loops and lessons from the commons. It criminalizes cooperation, interoperability, repairing and repurposing. Only the propertied class wins here. All the above arguments only compound and multiply when you consider that most of the technology that exists today was developed with taxpayer backed government loans (Mazzucato: The Entrepreneurial State), meaning that, as she puts it, "we have ended up creating an ‘innovation system’ whereby the public sector socializes risks, while rewards are privatized".

BoorishBears 5y ago

In years past you had to bring up the MBP but now the Macbook Air tips the scales. I got my 16 GB Macbook Air for $1000 at Microcenter. For development purposes it's the same as a Pro, except it doesn't have a fan (and has never throttled) and doesn't have a touch bar (which is great) The MBA is an insane value with the advent of the M1, a complete turnaround from the old days. Also it has a trick up it's sleeve when it comes to this: > the complete lack of repairability. As a reminder, your Mac's battery will die at some point, and your Mac will become useless. First off, Apple will replace the battery in a MBA for $129 (vs $200 for the MBP), so a little alarmist... But more importantly the new Air uses stretch-release adhesive (think command strips) and doesn't require removing the logic board for battery replacements. The MBP didn't inherent this improvement. It's no Framework but it makes it the value proposition that much sweeter...

infinityplus1 5y ago
The M1 Macbooks also allegedly have issues for which people need to file class action lawsuits: Class-action lawsuit filed for M1 MacBook screen cracks [U] https://9to5mac.com/2021/09/16/class-action-lawsuit-screen-cracks/ https://9to5mac.com/2021/09/16/class-action-lawsuit-screen-c...
- crubier 5y ago
  Of course a laptop sold in 10s of millions will have more problem than a laptop sold 1000x less...
Joeri 5y ago
The battery is indeed doable, but the keyboard and screen on the macbook air are more of a challenge, although the parts shouldn’t be hard to find in a few years. With the Framework laptop those parts are easy to replace but bespoke, so framework’s repairability will be determined by parts availability in half a decade.

pvarangot 5y ago

> I'm seriously considering selling my MBP and buying this instead Apple's trade-in program is pretty good. My 2012 MacBook Pro was still tradeable in 2019 for something like 400 bucks. I would consider that also if you don't want to abandon the Apple ecosystem. Before having to use a Mac for work I preferred a P53 and an X1 as work laptops, but honestly now that I'm forced to use macOS again I don't miss Linux at all. Would be great to be able to choose though, but I'm kinda locked on Xcode because it's our build system.

OJFord 5y ago
Do they go arbitrarily far back, or cut off at some point? (I have a 2013 Air I've barely used for years... Should've thought of it sooner.) The site just lists model names for the Macs, which is oddly non-granular compared to the iPhones by number: https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/trade-in https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/trade-in
- pvarangot 5y ago
  There's an estimator below where it says "Select your device for an estimate", and it walks you through a serial number thing and then gives you an accurate estimate. I think it does cut off at a point but I'm not sure when, and it's not the same for all devices.

for1nner 5y ago

Agree with everything said here, as a MBP user (2010->2015->16->19) for the last however many years (PC before then and as a secondary now) The closed ecosystem and continued hardening of even access to inside of my machine is troubling and obviously anti-consumer. Those points coupled with the lack of even 32GB of RAM in an M1 model (not to mention the cost of the brand) makes my next computer a probably-not-apple machine.

Grustaf 5y ago

> As a reminder, your Mac's battery will die at some point, and your Mac will become useless. You can replace the battery yourself for like 50 bucks, or have Apple do it for 2-3x that. We have MacBooks from 2013 in perfect working order at home.

andersonvom 5y ago
You technically can, in 66 easy steps and about 1-3 hours [1], all the while risking damaging your laptop. Compare that with 3-6 minutes [2] for the actually replaceable battery on the Framework. [1]: https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Pro+15-Inch+Touch+Bar+2019+Battery+Replacement/124182 https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Pro+15-Inch+Touch+Bar+2... [2]: https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Battery+Replacement+Guide/85 https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Battery+Replacement+Guide/85
- Grustaf 5y ago
  I did it on two old MBAs in under an hour, never tried with the touch bar mac. My 2016 touchbar MBP13 still has an excellent battery though. Also, amortised over 3-4 years of use I don't really see why it matters if it takes 1 or 3 hours. I'll take a 2 mm thinner computer any day.
  - npongratz 5y ago
    Replacing batteries for MBAs and MBPs are completely different experiences. I did the same with an MBA, replacing its battery in less than an hour by virtue of the battery not being glued to the case, nor having to worry about hidden clips built into the case, nor having to carefully dig out the guts of the system and putting them back together. The MBP is in a totally different class -- as iFixit shows, you don't start removing the battery until step 51! And they're not kidding: to get to the battery, you have to do things like remove the trackpad assembly and pry out the logic board assembly. Sure, you can amortize the 1-3 hours of labor over years of device ownership, but at every step, you're dealing with delicate parts, putting you in danger of turning your expensive, trusty daily driver into a brick. Batteries are a wear item, guaranteed to have to be replaced. Apple's managers, designers, and engineers could show more empathy for their customers by making it easier and less risky to replace their wear items.

brailsafe 5y ago

I also have the 2019 MBP, although not base model because I'm not a monster. Didn't the base model that year still have like a 128g SSD or something comically small? (I'm only jokingly being judgemental here, although it does baffle me why someone wouldn't upgrade at least a tiny bit to a level of practically if you had the choice to buy the computer in the first place) I'm kind of satisfied but not pleased at all with it, and I only have it because my 2018 non-touchbar model had a hardware issue which they replaced it with, and the 2013 model before that was stolen. It's marginally uograded to a 256gb SSD and 16gb of ram. I'm not pleased, specifically because of how loud the damn thing is. I was able to score a deal on an old gaming PC that runs quieter (or at least less annoying) on more demanding tasks, meanwhile I can't browse Instagram or watch video without creating a ridiculous noise. The 2013 model did not have this problem, and yes I'll acknowledge that video is a demanding task and modern websites are garbage, but cmon.

NotPractical 5y ago
I did at least upgrade to 256 GB storage (...for like $200 or something ridiculous), haha. I just didn't think to mention that minor upgrade. Edit: I'll also mention that the fan noise hasn't been a problem for me (I rarely notice it), but that may be because I don't use too many demanding programs.
- brailsafe 5y ago
  Ah I see. A friend of mine who definitely has the money and makes it as a developer bought the real base model with baseline storage, and it's a bit funny how little he can do with it. With 256 it gets me by most of the time, but I'm out of luck if I need VMs or games really. I can pick one. Didn't have the budget at the time to upgrade past that though, for the absurd prices you stated. Sometimes the fans will spin up in the middle of the night for some kernel process presumably.