6 ms·

Heres a biology point: accurate self-assessment is extremely difficult for the human brain, because the ability to assess yourself is one of the first things to

Heres a biology point: accurate self-assessment is extremely difficult for the human brain, because the ability to assess yourself is one of the first things to suffer a loss of performance with external stimuli or sleep deprivation. All you can really say is that you _feel_ more attentive.

mehrdada 5y ago
The self-evaluation aspect is kind of beside the point. The core question is given a fixed amount of "attention", do you want to spend most of it staring forward to keep yourself in the lane and avoid rear-ending the next car? Current Tesla Autopilot does that particular task almost perfectly today, on highway at least.
- romwell 5y ago
  Given a fixed amount of attention, I do want to spend most of it on making sure my car is not about to crash into an obstacle, like another car, or highway divider. Because Tesla requires people to do that, as there are no guarantees that the autopilot won't [1]. [1] https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2020/02/25/ntsb-teslas-autopilot-steered-model-x-into-highway-median-causing-fatal-mountain-view-crash https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2020/02/25/ntsb-teslas-a...
  - oliwary 5y ago
    This seems sensible, but I do wonder whether actively steering the car is as attention intensive as merely verifying that the car is steering correctly. This is pure speculation, but it feels like humans have a very robust model to determine when something is about to go wrong (i.e. this car is about to crash into an obstacle). If it takes less attention to determine that the car steers correctly as opposed to steering the car, this would leave more attention available to, for example, monitor other cars behavior.
    - mwint 5y ago
      It’s akin to sitting in the passenger seat of a car - you can be idly looking out the windshield, not really thinking about driving, and your brain will freak out the moment the driver doesn’t do what you expect. It’s like my brain always has a predicted path and velocity, and deviation from that is so easy for me to detect I do it subconsciously. Maybe other people aren’t like that, but I certainly am. I find myself wishing there was an FSD-like depiction of what’s going on in the driver’s brain, to answer the “you _are_ planning to stop eventually, right?” question.
    - romwell 5y ago
      >This seems sensible, but I do wonder whether actively steering the car is as attention intensive as merely verifying that the car is steering correctly. There is a lot of research explaining why it's true, particularly when it comes to piloting airplanes. The TL;DR is that doing something with your hands, involving touch, engages more of your brain. >This is pure speculation, but it feels like humans have a very robust model to determine when something is about to go wrong Yes, this is pure speculation, and also incorrect. Again, if you were to look things up instead of speculating, you'd quickly find plenty of information.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
elif 5y ago
Some situations are fully-qualifiable IMO. For instance, on those 80mph highway sweeping curves, my car is nailing the centerline better than i possibly ever could. As a result i'm glancing at the cars around me, both visually and using the 3D model, rather than focusing on where my tires go.
- romwell 5y ago
  Yeah, and nailing the curves does not equal more attention. Knowing where the tires are going is also important, like in that case where a Tesla accelerated into a highway divider.
  - Enginerrrd 5y ago
    Yeah there's a reason that forward attention is the default. Spreading attention to lower probability and lower gravity issues may not be optimal, even if it feels better. I'd guess it's riskier than maintaining attention in the direction of momentum. But it depends on the statistics of autopilot failure.
    - elif 5y ago
      That's like saying "There's a reason bash scripting is the default." when first confronting high level languages. Yup. Legacy. Humans are legacy equipment, required up until very recently. Constant forward-looking may seem beneficial since most things come at you from the front. You might think they are the most important class of problems because you're forced to focus on them constantly. However, when you're on the 9's tail of problems you encounter on the road, very few of them are things approaching you from the front. Many of them are unexpected things on your sides, rears, and blind spot. The implication of alot of these comments that assisted drivers HAVE to pay full attention to all minutae of driving just as if they were driving is really debased from the reality of self-driving i experience. In terms of statistics right now AP is 4x safer than average human per mile travelled.
      - romwell 5y ago
Buttons840 5y ago
The GPs core argument is that traditional markers of attentiveness may not be appropriate when it comes to autopilot. You then argue that self-assessment is inaccurate. You're right, but it just doesn't seem relevant.
- lamontcg 5y ago
  The GPs is supporting that core argument with anecdotal evidence from self-assessment. Dunno how you can say that's not relevant to point out, particularly since you agree.
itchyouch 5y ago
An interesting and observable self metric I've been able to use to assess my mental acuity has been to look at my statistics on clearing 40 lines in Tetris. (tetr.io if anyone else is interested) On fully rested, deep sleep days, I can drop the tetronimoes at 1.5 to 1.6 pieces per second (pps), while, sleep deprived states (4-5 hours), no matter how hard I try (and it "feels" like I'm performing very fast) drops to 1.2-1.3 pps. There's also a bit of a qualitative measure on how difficult it was to sustain focus for the 1 minute to 1.5 minutes that gives me an idea of my ability to focus and perform.
- droopyEyelids 5y ago
  Ha! I came to a similar conclusion, but using the game Spelunky. One thing that I find interesting is how i can see the differences in my performance through the day, as i hit a lull in the afternoon, and come back in the early evening.

mehrdada 5y ago

The self-evaluation aspect is kind of beside the point. The core question is given a fixed amount of "attention", do you want to spend most of it staring forward to keep yourself in the lane and avoid rear-ending the next car? Current Tesla Autopilot does that particular task almost perfectly today, on highway at least.

romwell 5y ago
Given a fixed amount of attention, I do want to spend most of it on making sure my car is not about to crash into an obstacle, like another car, or highway divider. Because Tesla requires people to do that, as there are no guarantees that the autopilot won't [1]. [1] https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2020/02/25/ntsb-teslas-autopilot-steered-model-x-into-highway-median-causing-fatal-mountain-view-crash https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2020/02/25/ntsb-teslas-a...
- oliwary 5y ago
  This seems sensible, but I do wonder whether actively steering the car is as attention intensive as merely verifying that the car is steering correctly. This is pure speculation, but it feels like humans have a very robust model to determine when something is about to go wrong (i.e. this car is about to crash into an obstacle). If it takes less attention to determine that the car steers correctly as opposed to steering the car, this would leave more attention available to, for example, monitor other cars behavior.
  - mwint 5y ago
    It’s akin to sitting in the passenger seat of a car - you can be idly looking out the windshield, not really thinking about driving, and your brain will freak out the moment the driver doesn’t do what you expect. It’s like my brain always has a predicted path and velocity, and deviation from that is so easy for me to detect I do it subconsciously. Maybe other people aren’t like that, but I certainly am. I find myself wishing there was an FSD-like depiction of what’s going on in the driver’s brain, to answer the “you _are_ planning to stop eventually, right?” question.
  - romwell 5y ago
    >This seems sensible, but I do wonder whether actively steering the car is as attention intensive as merely verifying that the car is steering correctly. There is a lot of research explaining why it's true, particularly when it comes to piloting airplanes. The TL;DR is that doing something with your hands, involving touch, engages more of your brain. >This is pure speculation, but it feels like humans have a very robust model to determine when something is about to go wrong Yes, this is pure speculation, and also incorrect. Again, if you were to look things up instead of speculating, you'd quickly find plenty of information.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

elif 5y ago

Some situations are fully-qualifiable IMO. For instance, on those 80mph highway sweeping curves, my car is nailing the centerline better than i possibly ever could. As a result i'm glancing at the cars around me, both visually and using the 3D model, rather than focusing on where my tires go.

romwell 5y ago
Yeah, and nailing the curves does not equal more attention. Knowing where the tires are going is also important, like in that case where a Tesla accelerated into a highway divider.
- Enginerrrd 5y ago
  Yeah there's a reason that forward attention is the default. Spreading attention to lower probability and lower gravity issues may not be optimal, even if it feels better. I'd guess it's riskier than maintaining attention in the direction of momentum. But it depends on the statistics of autopilot failure.
  - elif 5y ago
    That's like saying "There's a reason bash scripting is the default." when first confronting high level languages. Yup. Legacy. Humans are legacy equipment, required up until very recently. Constant forward-looking may seem beneficial since most things come at you from the front. You might think they are the most important class of problems because you're forced to focus on them constantly. However, when you're on the 9's tail of problems you encounter on the road, very few of them are things approaching you from the front. Many of them are unexpected things on your sides, rears, and blind spot. The implication of alot of these comments that assisted drivers HAVE to pay full attention to all minutae of driving just as if they were driving is really debased from the reality of self-driving i experience. In terms of statistics right now AP is 4x safer than average human per mile travelled.
    - romwell 5y ago

Buttons840 5y ago

The GPs core argument is that traditional markers of attentiveness may not be appropriate when it comes to autopilot. You then argue that self-assessment is inaccurate. You're right, but it just doesn't seem relevant.

lamontcg 5y ago
The GPs is supporting that core argument with anecdotal evidence from self-assessment. Dunno how you can say that's not relevant to point out, particularly since you agree.

itchyouch 5y ago

An interesting and observable self metric I've been able to use to assess my mental acuity has been to look at my statistics on clearing 40 lines in Tetris. (tetr.io if anyone else is interested) On fully rested, deep sleep days, I can drop the tetronimoes at 1.5 to 1.6 pieces per second (pps), while, sleep deprived states (4-5 hours), no matter how hard I try (and it "feels" like I'm performing very fast) drops to 1.2-1.3 pps. There's also a bit of a qualitative measure on how difficult it was to sustain focus for the 1 minute to 1.5 minutes that gives me an idea of my ability to focus and perform.

droopyEyelids 5y ago
Ha! I came to a similar conclusion, but using the game Spelunky. One thing that I find interesting is how i can see the differences in my performance through the day, as i hit a lull in the afternoon, and come back in the early evening.