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> I'm really excited about how Framework could potentially shake up the whole industry! It won’t. The industry used to be like that back in the day before App

by zepto 5y ago

> I'm really excited about how Framework could potentially shake up the whole industry! It won’t. The industry used to be like that back in the day before Apple proved that most people don’t want too many choices.

markkanof 5y ago
I'm not pushing back too hard on this idea, because in general you are likely right about almost anything, that most people don't care that much. However, I'm not sure that Apple really proved that most people don't want too many choices. The choice to buy an Apple computer could be for any number of reasons. Like for example, I really like macOS and the integration between my iPhone and my MacBook for things like iMessage. Anytime I've bought an Apple computer it's felt like I have to compromise on the hardware options, but I still do it because I like other aspects of the overall ecosystem.
- zepto 5y ago
  Look back to Steve Jobs’s return. Long before they had ecosystem lock in, before even the iPod was released, he simplified the range drastically to make it easier for people to make the buying decision. Also, anyone who says “it’s felt like I have to compromise on the hardware options” is an outlier by definition.
  - ixwt 5y ago
    I feel like this is a bit disingenuous. The general populous/average consumer prefers simplified options. They aren't tech savvy as many here are. When you throw a bunch of specs at them their eyes glaze over. And then ask you if they can get on their Facebook. It makes sense from a business sense to have fewer models with small changes between them. You could have tech workers that assemble every custom order. That costs a lot more than a simplified inventory of a few different models that are already pre-assembled, with no hardware customization.
    - zepto 5y ago
      > I feel like this is a bit disingenuous. Please refrain from insults, or at least make an effort to justify this if you think it’s valid. > The general populous/average consumer prefers simplified options. They aren't tech savvy as many here are. Isn’t that exactly my point? The industry serves the general consumer. The framework laptop serves a niche.
- dwaite 5y ago
  I don't have market analytics, only single cases, but nobody who has ever asked me for help about a computer has wanted to know what the difference is between this 'Intel' part vs 'Celeron' part vs 'AMD', carried on to graphics, disk technology, etc. They typically not only don't indicate a desired minimum amount of memory, but cannot reliably talk about system ram vs storage. What they want is to know they are getting a good deal and that they aren't buying a lemon, something that cannot meet their needs. What Apple did is decide they should really distinguish on classes of identifiable hardware differences, eg. a better larger screen for a "pro" class, have good/better/best distinctions within that, and customization for those who are picky. I assume the intersection between people who have particular hardware requirements and those who do not understand their hardware requirements is extremely small these days. Apple doesn't sell computers which really fall short these days, so I'm able to focus the conversation on usage, user-impacting hardware features, and long-term budgeting (e.g. planning even as far as the replacement for the machine they are buying)
Kiro 5y ago
I have choice paralysis just from Air vs Pro (if there was only one model I would have bought the M1 a long time ago) so I think you're right.
alpaca128 5y ago
> Apple proved that most people don’t want too many choices They proved that taking away choices is still better than the shitshow their competitors are running. Apple proved that a few simple product names are less confusing than literally 6 different "brands" of laptops from a single company. That doesn't mean people don't want choices though, they just don't want to feel like they're getting trolled by badly designed websites throwing all the possible laptop configurations in their face. Even if you know what the specs mean it still feels like a major waste of time to try and compare the 20 devices on the screen. I want to configure every detail of my laptop, not 2 details on one of 200 laptops. Apple also proved that making devices difficult to upgrade, maintain and repair is harmful for everything and everyone other than Apple.
- zepto 5y ago
  > I want to configure every detail of my laptop Almost nobody wants that, but the good news is that enough people do that framework exists.
  - alpaca128 5y ago
    That doesn't make it impossible to get such configuration options. If I can choose how much RAM I want, they could just as well offer the "no RAM" option so I can keep the two modules of my old laptop. Instead they lie to our faces claiming RAM has to be soldered on for some reason, making that impossible. Same with SSDs etc. I would understand it if a manufacturer offered some ultra high-end model with custom storage like in the PS5. But if the Framework laptop can have swappable RAM and SSDs with almost the same thickness as a (insufficiently cooled) Macbook it's obvious why that stuff is soldered in.
    - zepto 5y ago
      > they lie to our faces claiming RAM has to be soldered on for some reason Can you actually find a quote for this? I’m quite skeptical that any such lie has been told.

by zepto 5y ago

markkanof 5y ago

I'm not pushing back too hard on this idea, because in general you are likely right about almost anything, that most people don't care that much. However, I'm not sure that Apple really proved that most people don't want too many choices. The choice to buy an Apple computer could be for any number of reasons. Like for example, I really like macOS and the integration between my iPhone and my MacBook for things like iMessage. Anytime I've bought an Apple computer it's felt like I have to compromise on the hardware options, but I still do it because I like other aspects of the overall ecosystem.

zepto 5y ago
Look back to Steve Jobs’s return. Long before they had ecosystem lock in, before even the iPod was released, he simplified the range drastically to make it easier for people to make the buying decision. Also, anyone who says “it’s felt like I have to compromise on the hardware options” is an outlier by definition.
- ixwt 5y ago
  I feel like this is a bit disingenuous. The general populous/average consumer prefers simplified options. They aren't tech savvy as many here are. When you throw a bunch of specs at them their eyes glaze over. And then ask you if they can get on their Facebook. It makes sense from a business sense to have fewer models with small changes between them. You could have tech workers that assemble every custom order. That costs a lot more than a simplified inventory of a few different models that are already pre-assembled, with no hardware customization.
  - zepto 5y ago
    > I feel like this is a bit disingenuous. Please refrain from insults, or at least make an effort to justify this if you think it’s valid. > The general populous/average consumer prefers simplified options. They aren't tech savvy as many here are. Isn’t that exactly my point? The industry serves the general consumer. The framework laptop serves a niche.
dwaite 5y ago
I don't have market analytics, only single cases, but nobody who has ever asked me for help about a computer has wanted to know what the difference is between this 'Intel' part vs 'Celeron' part vs 'AMD', carried on to graphics, disk technology, etc. They typically not only don't indicate a desired minimum amount of memory, but cannot reliably talk about system ram vs storage. What they want is to know they are getting a good deal and that they aren't buying a lemon, something that cannot meet their needs. What Apple did is decide they should really distinguish on classes of identifiable hardware differences, eg. a better larger screen for a "pro" class, have good/better/best distinctions within that, and customization for those who are picky. I assume the intersection between people who have particular hardware requirements and those who do not understand their hardware requirements is extremely small these days. Apple doesn't sell computers which really fall short these days, so I'm able to focus the conversation on usage, user-impacting hardware features, and long-term budgeting (e.g. planning even as far as the replacement for the machine they are buying)

Kiro 5y ago

I have choice paralysis just from Air vs Pro (if there was only one model I would have bought the M1 a long time ago) so I think you're right.

alpaca128 5y ago

> Apple proved that most people don’t want too many choices They proved that taking away choices is still better than the shitshow their competitors are running. Apple proved that a few simple product names are less confusing than literally 6 different "brands" of laptops from a single company. That doesn't mean people don't want choices though, they just don't want to feel like they're getting trolled by badly designed websites throwing all the possible laptop configurations in their face. Even if you know what the specs mean it still feels like a major waste of time to try and compare the 20 devices on the screen. I want to configure every detail of my laptop, not 2 details on one of 200 laptops. Apple also proved that making devices difficult to upgrade, maintain and repair is harmful for everything and everyone other than Apple.

zepto 5y ago
> I want to configure every detail of my laptop Almost nobody wants that, but the good news is that enough people do that framework exists.
- alpaca128 5y ago
  That doesn't make it impossible to get such configuration options. If I can choose how much RAM I want, they could just as well offer the "no RAM" option so I can keep the two modules of my old laptop. Instead they lie to our faces claiming RAM has to be soldered on for some reason, making that impossible. Same with SSDs etc. I would understand it if a manufacturer offered some ultra high-end model with custom storage like in the PS5. But if the Framework laptop can have swappable RAM and SSDs with almost the same thickness as a (insufficiently cooled) Macbook it's obvious why that stuff is soldered in.
  - zepto 5y ago
    > they lie to our faces claiming RAM has to be soldered on for some reason Can you actually find a quote for this? I’m quite skeptical that any such lie has been told.