4 ms·

Turn the question around: Why would you think you have the arbitrary power to walk out on your job, and not have them let you go? You 100% have the right to '

Turn the question around: Why would you think you have the arbitrary power to walk out on your job, and not have them let you go? You 100% have the right to 'not show up at the auto shop to protest wages at the coffee shop' ... but it's a little odd to think that they can't just let you go and find another worker who will actually show up.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
doikor 5y ago
That is not the same thing turned around. Support/sympathy strike means the the workers from other companies stop providing services for to the target of the strike. Most common forms of this is something like the ground crews joining the cabin crew/pilot strikes (or the other way around) or truck drivers joining the port workers strike (or again the other way around) edit: Or wait is just normal striking illegal too? So it is literally illegal for a group of people to get together and go "fuck it this sucks" and not show up to work the next day?
- aidenn0 5y ago
  Per wikipedia[1] The Taft-Hartley Act banned "jurisdictional strikes, wildcat strikes, solidarity or political strikes, secondary boycotts, secondary and mass picketing, closed shops, and monetary donations by unions to federal political campaigns." Most if not all of these actions are legal in Denmark, here's some quick definitions: - A Jurisdictional Strike is a strike to dispute job assignments; e.g. that all brickwork be done by members of a brickworking union - A wildcat strike is a strike without union organization (so to answer your question, yes it is literally illegal for a group of people to get together and go "fuck it this sucks" and not show up to work the next day. - Solidarity strikes would be a strike when you don't work for the employer. Not to be confused with secondary boycotts (below) - Political strikes are strikes intended to influence government policy - Secondary boycotts are what TFA mentions; e.g. not loading/unloading cargo to/from a specific company. - Secondary picketing would be picketing companies that do business with the company (e.g. picketing stores that sell products from the business, or companies that sell goods or services to the business) - A closed shop is a deal that requires the employer to only hire union members[2] - Donating funds to federal campaigns is perhaps obvious? 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act 2: Note that it is still legal for a collective bargaining agreement to require those hired to pay dues, but this act also allowed states to ban even that. 27/50 states currently ban even this, though going by population it's less than half the population that live in such a state.
  - jollybean 5y ago
    " yes it is literally illegal for a group of people to get together and go "fuck it this sucks" and not show up to work the next day." No, it is not (!). This thread is full of reality-bending statements. It's 100% legal to say 'fck it' and not show up to your job (in most cases). That was never illegal, and it still isn't either in the US or Denmark. It is not, however, possibly not legal to do so and maintain Union protections and 'not be fired'. The power to literally not do your job* and then to have the government force private companies to maintain your contract (possibly renegotiated) as opposed to just annulling it and hiring others ... is effectively a 'positive right' which is obviously going to be regulated. 'Blockading' businesses, is also a very different thing than a 'boycott' and under any reasonable circumstance would also be illegal. Go walk in front of your local Starbucks and try to stop deliveries, customers and employees from entering, and you'll find out both what the law is, and what's reasonable. 'Political Strikes' wouldn't ever be considered a form of reasonable power as well. Can you imagine Tesla employees not showing up for work for several weeks/months because they want to support/oppose Gavin Newsom's recall? And that Tesla wouldn't be allowed to let them go for now doing their work? I don't think you're going to find a lot of reasonable sympathy there. Providing for the ability for workers to shut down a company because they want to make a political statement, to damage other businesses or workers, or blockading other businesses or workers etc. shouldn't rationally be within the purview of normal Union activity.
    - aidenn0 5y ago
      > " yes it is literally illegal for a group of people to get together and go "fuck it this sucks" and not show up to work the next day." > No, it is not (!). You are correct. It is only illegal if you are a member of a union. If you never were a member of a union, or if you terminate your membership with the union, you may then strike (at which point you obviously do so without any union protections).
      - doikor 5y ago
        Ok the US system is just plain weird. Here in the Nordics there is no law protecting you from not getting fired for not showing up for work during a strike. It is all in the collective agreement that both sides agreed upon. And again the collective agreement applies to everyone union member or not. Basically if a company does so the company is fucked as support strikes will stop pretty much all basic services your company uses from happening (cleaning, trash collecting, security guards, trucking/package services, etc would just stop happening). Obviously this only works if there is relatively high level of unionization on all fields. Getting all these support strikes slapped on top of the "normal" strike is what happens when the employer breaks (or refuses to sign/join) the collective agreement (this is exactly what happened to McDonalds in Denmark)
adamlett 5y ago
Why would you think you have the arbitrary power to walk out on your job, and not have them let you go? This is why you rarely hear about individual workers going on strike. An individual is expendable. It’s quite another thing when the entire workforce shuts down production by walking out. Sure, you could just fire them all, but your production is still shut down. The question of legality is not a question of whether an individual worker has the right to walk out (of they do; they are not slaves), or whether employers have a right to fire them (they mostly do). It’s a question of whether workers have the right to organize and coordinate the walking out, or whether this constituted a criminal conspiracy.
- jollybean 5y ago
  This is not it. "or whether employers have a right to fire them (they mostly do)" No - they do not. Employers cannot fire workers that are striking 'properly' (i.e. within labour code protections) - that is the very essence of the power of Unions. Workers can walkout or 'strike' any time they want, as groups or individuals. They can all quit, and even threaten to all quit. They can even 'conspire' to all quit. None of that is illegal - but the company cannot fire people if the strike is per regulations. They can fire them if the strike is not per regulations. The notion of 'illegal strike' is misappropriated here. The term 'illegal' or 'unlawful strike' really should be described as 'illegitimate strike', in which case the (non-market) rights that the government has afforded labour to 'not be fired' when they strike, do not apply. Under specific conditions, the government protects workers who strike from being fired. If those conditions are not met, then the protections offered workers are absolved, and so the workers can be fired. Sometimes, workers will do a 'strike' together, without the backing of their leadership - this is called a 'wildcat strike' i.e. 'coordinated strike, technically not under the premise of the labour regulations'. This is an 'illegal strike'. Someone 'walking out' and doing a '1 person strike' would be doing a mini 'wildcat strike' i.e. 'illegal'. They will be fired. As you mentioned, the threat of a labour union just 'stopping production' would be scary, yes, but in most scenarios, the company - if they could - would definitely take the pain to get rid of the union. In a heartbeat. With joy and elation. If you have antagonist staff that are threatening your operations by shutting down production, harassing replacement temporary workers, all sorts of tactics ... you definitely want that situation gone. The owners would more than likely just let everyone go, and open the doors to hire new staff, and probably allowing regular workers to come back but not allowing the 'bad apples' (their purview). In short: Unions derive their ultimate power form the ability to 'walk out' whilst at the same time being protected from being fired. That's the power that Union power rests on. Without that power, they'd be whittled away very quickly. Danish white collar unions, a little bit like government unions, are very different from most of the traditional labour unions i.e. factory workers, auto workers. In the later, unions can wield incredible power. At Beoing plant in Canada, 'Management' does not decide who does what job, or who gets promoted/advanced. Boeing basically allocates the # or roles and the skill sets. The Union leadership decide who gets to do what job, and it's almost entirely based on 'time in'. 'Seniority' is the golden power for union members and it outranks almost all other things. At a Ford plant in S. Ontario, the #1 job for the guy with the most seniority is to do nothing. Literally he sits all day in a room, overlooking the plant, watching everyone work. I think it's a historical artifact of when there was literal oversight needed, but obviously not anymore. He's like the King of the factory and rules all. He earns well over six figures to do that. Really nice guy though.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

doikor 5y ago

That is not the same thing turned around. Support/sympathy strike means the the workers from other companies stop providing services for to the target of the strike. Most common forms of this is something like the ground crews joining the cabin crew/pilot strikes (or the other way around) or truck drivers joining the port workers strike (or again the other way around) edit: Or wait is just normal striking illegal too? So it is literally illegal for a group of people to get together and go "fuck it this sucks" and not show up to work the next day?

aidenn0 5y ago
Per wikipedia[1] The Taft-Hartley Act banned "jurisdictional strikes, wildcat strikes, solidarity or political strikes, secondary boycotts, secondary and mass picketing, closed shops, and monetary donations by unions to federal political campaigns." Most if not all of these actions are legal in Denmark, here's some quick definitions: - A Jurisdictional Strike is a strike to dispute job assignments; e.g. that all brickwork be done by members of a brickworking union - A wildcat strike is a strike without union organization (so to answer your question, yes it is literally illegal for a group of people to get together and go "fuck it this sucks" and not show up to work the next day. - Solidarity strikes would be a strike when you don't work for the employer. Not to be confused with secondary boycotts (below) - Political strikes are strikes intended to influence government policy - Secondary boycotts are what TFA mentions; e.g. not loading/unloading cargo to/from a specific company. - Secondary picketing would be picketing companies that do business with the company (e.g. picketing stores that sell products from the business, or companies that sell goods or services to the business) - A closed shop is a deal that requires the employer to only hire union members[2] - Donating funds to federal campaigns is perhaps obvious? 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act 2: Note that it is still legal for a collective bargaining agreement to require those hired to pay dues, but this act also allowed states to ban even that. 27/50 states currently ban even this, though going by population it's less than half the population that live in such a state.
- jollybean 5y ago
  " yes it is literally illegal for a group of people to get together and go "fuck it this sucks" and not show up to work the next day." No, it is not (!). This thread is full of reality-bending statements. It's 100% legal to say 'fck it' and not show up to your job (in most cases). That was never illegal, and it still isn't either in the US or Denmark. It is not, however, possibly not legal to do so and maintain Union protections and 'not be fired'. The power to literally not do your job* and then to have the government force private companies to maintain your contract (possibly renegotiated) as opposed to just annulling it and hiring others ... is effectively a 'positive right' which is obviously going to be regulated. 'Blockading' businesses, is also a very different thing than a 'boycott' and under any reasonable circumstance would also be illegal. Go walk in front of your local Starbucks and try to stop deliveries, customers and employees from entering, and you'll find out both what the law is, and what's reasonable. 'Political Strikes' wouldn't ever be considered a form of reasonable power as well. Can you imagine Tesla employees not showing up for work for several weeks/months because they want to support/oppose Gavin Newsom's recall? And that Tesla wouldn't be allowed to let them go for now doing their work? I don't think you're going to find a lot of reasonable sympathy there. Providing for the ability for workers to shut down a company because they want to make a political statement, to damage other businesses or workers, or blockading other businesses or workers etc. shouldn't rationally be within the purview of normal Union activity.
  - aidenn0 5y ago
    > " yes it is literally illegal for a group of people to get together and go "fuck it this sucks" and not show up to work the next day." > No, it is not (!). You are correct. It is only illegal if you are a member of a union. If you never were a member of a union, or if you terminate your membership with the union, you may then strike (at which point you obviously do so without any union protections).
    - doikor 5y ago
      Ok the US system is just plain weird. Here in the Nordics there is no law protecting you from not getting fired for not showing up for work during a strike. It is all in the collective agreement that both sides agreed upon. And again the collective agreement applies to everyone union member or not. Basically if a company does so the company is fucked as support strikes will stop pretty much all basic services your company uses from happening (cleaning, trash collecting, security guards, trucking/package services, etc would just stop happening). Obviously this only works if there is relatively high level of unionization on all fields. Getting all these support strikes slapped on top of the "normal" strike is what happens when the employer breaks (or refuses to sign/join) the collective agreement (this is exactly what happened to McDonalds in Denmark)

adamlett 5y ago

Why would you think you have the arbitrary power to walk out on your job, and not have them let you go? This is why you rarely hear about individual workers going on strike. An individual is expendable. It’s quite another thing when the entire workforce shuts down production by walking out. Sure, you could just fire them all, but your production is still shut down. The question of legality is not a question of whether an individual worker has the right to walk out (of they do; they are not slaves), or whether employers have a right to fire them (they mostly do). It’s a question of whether workers have the right to organize and coordinate the walking out, or whether this constituted a criminal conspiracy.

jollybean 5y ago
This is not it. "or whether employers have a right to fire them (they mostly do)" No - they do not. Employers cannot fire workers that are striking 'properly' (i.e. within labour code protections) - that is the very essence of the power of Unions. Workers can walkout or 'strike' any time they want, as groups or individuals. They can all quit, and even threaten to all quit. They can even 'conspire' to all quit. None of that is illegal - but the company cannot fire people if the strike is per regulations. They can fire them if the strike is not per regulations. The notion of 'illegal strike' is misappropriated here. The term 'illegal' or 'unlawful strike' really should be described as 'illegitimate strike', in which case the (non-market) rights that the government has afforded labour to 'not be fired' when they strike, do not apply. Under specific conditions, the government protects workers who strike from being fired. If those conditions are not met, then the protections offered workers are absolved, and so the workers can be fired. Sometimes, workers will do a 'strike' together, without the backing of their leadership - this is called a 'wildcat strike' i.e. 'coordinated strike, technically not under the premise of the labour regulations'. This is an 'illegal strike'. Someone 'walking out' and doing a '1 person strike' would be doing a mini 'wildcat strike' i.e. 'illegal'. They will be fired. As you mentioned, the threat of a labour union just 'stopping production' would be scary, yes, but in most scenarios, the company - if they could - would definitely take the pain to get rid of the union. In a heartbeat. With joy and elation. If you have antagonist staff that are threatening your operations by shutting down production, harassing replacement temporary workers, all sorts of tactics ... you definitely want that situation gone. The owners would more than likely just let everyone go, and open the doors to hire new staff, and probably allowing regular workers to come back but not allowing the 'bad apples' (their purview). In short: Unions derive their ultimate power form the ability to 'walk out' whilst at the same time being protected from being fired. That's the power that Union power rests on. Without that power, they'd be whittled away very quickly. Danish white collar unions, a little bit like government unions, are very different from most of the traditional labour unions i.e. factory workers, auto workers. In the later, unions can wield incredible power. At Beoing plant in Canada, 'Management' does not decide who does what job, or who gets promoted/advanced. Boeing basically allocates the # or roles and the skill sets. The Union leadership decide who gets to do what job, and it's almost entirely based on 'time in'. 'Seniority' is the golden power for union members and it outranks almost all other things. At a Ford plant in S. Ontario, the #1 job for the guy with the most seniority is to do nothing. Literally he sits all day in a room, overlooking the plant, watching everyone work. I think it's a historical artifact of when there was literal oversight needed, but obviously not anymore. He's like the King of the factory and rules all. He earns well over six figures to do that. Really nice guy though.