4 ms·

Windows Phone GM leaving Microsoft, with a rallying cry

43 points by i2o 15y ago

i2o 15y ago
For those who don't know Charlie his contributions include (as listed at http://www.liveside.net/2011/08/08/charlie-kindel-to-leave-microsoft-after-21-years/ http://www.liveside.net/2011/08/08/charlie-kindel-to-leave-m...): - Founded Premier support - Built ActiveX and DCOM - Shipped Internet Explorer 3.0 - Drove the development of the home networking features in Windows XP - Founded eHome and shipped the first version of Windows Media Center - Drove the invention of Windows Smart Displays and Windows Media Center Extenders - Served Bob Muglia as executive technical assistant as he ran the Enterprise Storage business through to him running the Server and Tools Division - Was the driving force behind Windows Home Server - Led the design and development of the Windows Phone 7 Application Platform - Drove the Windows Phone 7 application platform ecosystem development and evangelism effort
- mariusmg 15y ago
  Seriously ? One dude built ActiveX and DCOM ?! Wow...
  - kenjackson 15y ago
    No, he was part of a team.
    - iqster 15y ago
      I think mariusmg is making a point. The text above is written as if the person solely did the work. In my opinion it would have been better to write it as "part of numerous teams, including ones that developed X, Y and Z."
- rimantas 15y ago
  Genuine question: are any of these worth to be proud of? Besides the shipping of the actual product.
  - kenjackson 15y ago
    Honestly, all of them.
    - rimantas 15y ago
      Alas, I had to deal with IE3. Not sure what to be proud about that thing (except for being a bit better than IE2).
      - kenjackson 15y ago
        From Wikipedia on what was in IE3: "Version 3 included Internet Mail and News 1.0 and the Windows Address Book. It also brought the browser much closer to the bar that had been set by Netscape, including the support of Netscape's plugins technology (NPAPI), ActiveX, frames, and a reverse-engineered version of JavaScript named JScript. Later, Microsoft NetMeeting and Windows Media Player were integrated into the product and thus helper applications became not as necessary as they once were. Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) were also introduced with version 3 of Internet Explorer." IE was clearly playing catch up at that point, but one thing I do remember is that IE was acceleratig really quickly. And like you, I do recall IE3 being behind Netscape, but I also recall it being the first time I thought, "MS is on a trajectory to surpass Netscape shortly".
- jsz0 15y ago
  It's a shame that both Windows MCE and Windows Home Server never lived up to their potential. Possibly we can add WM7 to that list in a few years too. I can understand why he's leaving. It must be horrible to develop these really good products and see your company drop the ball on them.
  - commandar 15y ago
    WHS was a great idea tied to an awful implementation. I installed a copy through MAPS at work, and I think it lasted all of 15 minutes before I dismissed it entirely; it looked like very little more than Windows Server 2003 with some weakly integrated automation sitting on top.
  - i2o 15y ago
    MCE's challenge (at the time) was the cable networks death grip on the signal. It took years for CableCARD to surface, and even then it was limited in its deployment geographically and provider wise. If that had been solved much quicker I bet we would have seen a larger MCE ecosystem form. Nowadays the world is moving on to online streaming which presents other challenges. Looking at Boxee's solution shows how hard it is to get it to work as smooth as possible. Apple is besting it by brokering deals with content providers, perhaps something Microsoft should have pursued earlier. It's tough when you've heard the internal vision of what it could have been and seen what is has become. There was so much not brought to the public that would have made MCE a staple in the home theatre.
    - nitrogen 15y ago
      MCE shares its victimhood at the hands of content companies with the other media center solutions, like MythTV, XBMC, etc. The lack of a simple way to get cable TV into the PC (coupled with lawsuits targeting automated commercial skipping, etc.) relegated HTPC use to the brave few who were willing to set up IR blasters on their cable boxes or just download content instead of recording it. It is the geek's torment to remember always what could have been, and suffer under what really is, thanks to the mighty powers that be (in this context the content companies, patent holders, etc.).
- DenisM 15y ago
  I can't find a single product on this list that I could say, "yep, that was worth it". DCOM - a pile of complexity even most Microsoft employees couldn't understand. Different threading models, security problems, you name it. In my early days as Microsoft employee one unfortunate guy decided to implement an app to manage installing latest build of a (different) product and running tests on a couple hundred machines; he spent month fighting DCOM problems. ActiveX - huge security nightmare in the browsers. IE3 - don't know, don't remember much. WMC - windows-based media centers are a failure. Large, noisy, boxes, poor power management, lack of support for MKV in the latest version. Had they done it right there would never be a Roku, and Apple TV would be too late to market. It's failure. Home server - they should have solved two simple problems: 1) every windows user should have a backup solution according to his budget (starting from $50 and up) 2) every windows user should have a one-click file-sharing solution according to his budget (starting at zero dollars). They failed at both. I guesstimate 90% of windows users still do not have a backup solution. This reflects poorly on the entire platform reputation. So they came up with a $400 noisy, blinking box that needs its own space. These "features" are most often incompatible with female spousal units. Geeks love those gadgets, which is the market they conquered, leaving normal people behind. WP7 - they jury is still out on that one. Overall this looks like a bunch of products only a geek could love. Yes, they are cool, but they failed to live up to the Microsoft's then-ambitions - to change normal people's lives for the better.
  - pedalpete 15y ago
    Just because you don't like/use the products is no reason to assault somebody else's work like that. Some of these products have resulted in millions of dollars and (apparently) some happy customers.
    - DenisM 15y ago
      It's not just me not liking a product. I claim these products (the ones I listed) have failed to achieve any significant goals, anything worthy of the opportunity. For example, yes, WHS sold quite a few devices, and it would be a huge success for a startup, but when you have the entire power of Microsoft behind your back, your goals need to be ambitious. I have outlined what I think WHS goals should have been - a backup solution for 80 percents of all platform users. In version "next" they could add file sharing for 80% of the users. Anything less than that is a waste of opportunity, and a huge disservice to Microsoft users, employees, and shareholders.
sriramk 15y ago
Submitted this and found out I was beaten by less than a minute :) Charlie is an extremely famous figure at MSFT for everything from COM, Windows Home Server to WP7. The first time I came across him was when I was in high school and I knew him as the guy behind COM (sorry, Charlie :) ) who wrote the funny foreword to Don Box's book. It is surreal to think that I actually met him and got to know him. This is a guy who knows how to build stuff. Big loss for MSFT.
- CapitalistCartr 15y ago
  " . . . to WP7." The first time I read this, I read " . . . to Word Perfect 7." Wait, what ? ! ? Maybe I'm getting old.
  - flatline 15y ago
    Most US government agencies still use Word Perfect 10 or 11, so I have the same problem with the WP acronym.
politician 15y ago
This sounds like another nail in the increasingly metal-rich coffin of Silverlight, or am I reading too much into this?
- solutionyogi 15y ago
  How is this in anyway related to Silverlight?
  - MartinCron 15y ago
    SilverLight has been presented as the preferred way to develop for Windows Phone 7, much to the dismay of some SilverLight web/desktop developers who find it a good technology for web/desktop work and fear that it will be phased out.
    - runjake 15y ago
      Really, it's been mis-presented by Microsoft. Developing a WP7 app normally involves C# and XAML (for most UI layout). The frameworks include the usual .NET stuff, as well as Silverlight and XNA (MS's gaming/graphics) frameworks. A competent .NET or Silverlight developer can move into the WP7 development world comfortably. I don't believe your comment about "dismay" is really accurate. I think Silverlight developers probably fall under one of two buckets: 1) "Cool! I can develop phone apps using my existing skillset!", or 2) "I don't really care about mobile development."
      - MartinCron 15y ago
        RE: dismay, I was thinking of a previous article I saw here on HN: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2644364 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2644364 although it seems that was a bit over-sensationalized. I agree that at least reasonable SL developers will fall into your two buckets.
        runjake 15y ago
        Yeah, sounds a bit over-sensationalized. Microsoft is probably silent because they're not sure what technology the final project will use. Some exec could've ignorantly opened their mouth about "html5+js" and left the Win8 engineers groaning. It'd pretty clear to me that .NET/Silverlight/WPF aren't going away. They are too popular and there's too much activity around those technologies.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
ahmetalpbalkan 15y ago
He's just a GM. there are many GM's in WP division. It is really common to see MS GMs leaving for startups.
BarkMore 15y ago
Middle managers at Microsoft can be successful because of a number of skills not relevant in a startup: ability to run huge teams, Microsoft institutional knowledge, political maneuvering and so on. Some of these skills might even be harmful in a startup. It will be interesting to see how Kindel fairs outside of Microsoft.
felipemnoa 15y ago
>>but he says he still believes strongly in Microsoft’s long-term prospects against the likes of Apple and Google in the mobile market. I think he looses a lot of credibility saying something like this. What does he base his belief on? Better not say anything.
- sriramk 15y ago
  I still believe that too. Of course, when you work in a place for six years and have a lot of emotion connected to that place (see my farewell mail on my blog), it tends to bias your opinions :)
contextfree 15y ago
The article mentions this, but he actually left the WP team itself a while back, shortly after the initial release.

43 points by i2o 15y ago

i2o 15y ago

For those who don't know Charlie his contributions include (as listed at http://www.liveside.net/2011/08/08/charlie-kindel-to-leave-microsoft-after-21-years/ http://www.liveside.net/2011/08/08/charlie-kindel-to-leave-m...): - Founded Premier support - Built ActiveX and DCOM - Shipped Internet Explorer 3.0 - Drove the development of the home networking features in Windows XP - Founded eHome and shipped the first version of Windows Media Center - Drove the invention of Windows Smart Displays and Windows Media Center Extenders - Served Bob Muglia as executive technical assistant as he ran the Enterprise Storage business through to him running the Server and Tools Division - Was the driving force behind Windows Home Server - Led the design and development of the Windows Phone 7 Application Platform - Drove the Windows Phone 7 application platform ecosystem development and evangelism effort

mariusmg 15y ago
Seriously ? One dude built ActiveX and DCOM ?! Wow...
- kenjackson 15y ago
  No, he was part of a team.
  - iqster 15y ago
    I think mariusmg is making a point. The text above is written as if the person solely did the work. In my opinion it would have been better to write it as "part of numerous teams, including ones that developed X, Y and Z."
rimantas 15y ago
Genuine question: are any of these worth to be proud of? Besides the shipping of the actual product.
- kenjackson 15y ago
  Honestly, all of them.
  - rimantas 15y ago
    Alas, I had to deal with IE3. Not sure what to be proud about that thing (except for being a bit better than IE2).
    - kenjackson 15y ago
      From Wikipedia on what was in IE3: "Version 3 included Internet Mail and News 1.0 and the Windows Address Book. It also brought the browser much closer to the bar that had been set by Netscape, including the support of Netscape's plugins technology (NPAPI), ActiveX, frames, and a reverse-engineered version of JavaScript named JScript. Later, Microsoft NetMeeting and Windows Media Player were integrated into the product and thus helper applications became not as necessary as they once were. Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) were also introduced with version 3 of Internet Explorer." IE was clearly playing catch up at that point, but one thing I do remember is that IE was acceleratig really quickly. And like you, I do recall IE3 being behind Netscape, but I also recall it being the first time I thought, "MS is on a trajectory to surpass Netscape shortly".
jsz0 15y ago
It's a shame that both Windows MCE and Windows Home Server never lived up to their potential. Possibly we can add WM7 to that list in a few years too. I can understand why he's leaving. It must be horrible to develop these really good products and see your company drop the ball on them.
- commandar 15y ago
  WHS was a great idea tied to an awful implementation. I installed a copy through MAPS at work, and I think it lasted all of 15 minutes before I dismissed it entirely; it looked like very little more than Windows Server 2003 with some weakly integrated automation sitting on top.
- i2o 15y ago
  MCE's challenge (at the time) was the cable networks death grip on the signal. It took years for CableCARD to surface, and even then it was limited in its deployment geographically and provider wise. If that had been solved much quicker I bet we would have seen a larger MCE ecosystem form. Nowadays the world is moving on to online streaming which presents other challenges. Looking at Boxee's solution shows how hard it is to get it to work as smooth as possible. Apple is besting it by brokering deals with content providers, perhaps something Microsoft should have pursued earlier. It's tough when you've heard the internal vision of what it could have been and seen what is has become. There was so much not brought to the public that would have made MCE a staple in the home theatre.
  - nitrogen 15y ago
    MCE shares its victimhood at the hands of content companies with the other media center solutions, like MythTV, XBMC, etc. The lack of a simple way to get cable TV into the PC (coupled with lawsuits targeting automated commercial skipping, etc.) relegated HTPC use to the brave few who were willing to set up IR blasters on their cable boxes or just download content instead of recording it. It is the geek's torment to remember always what could have been, and suffer under what really is, thanks to the mighty powers that be (in this context the content companies, patent holders, etc.).
DenisM 15y ago
I can't find a single product on this list that I could say, "yep, that was worth it". DCOM - a pile of complexity even most Microsoft employees couldn't understand. Different threading models, security problems, you name it. In my early days as Microsoft employee one unfortunate guy decided to implement an app to manage installing latest build of a (different) product and running tests on a couple hundred machines; he spent month fighting DCOM problems. ActiveX - huge security nightmare in the browsers. IE3 - don't know, don't remember much. WMC - windows-based media centers are a failure. Large, noisy, boxes, poor power management, lack of support for MKV in the latest version. Had they done it right there would never be a Roku, and Apple TV would be too late to market. It's failure. Home server - they should have solved two simple problems: 1) every windows user should have a backup solution according to his budget (starting from $50 and up) 2) every windows user should have a one-click file-sharing solution according to his budget (starting at zero dollars). They failed at both. I guesstimate 90% of windows users still do not have a backup solution. This reflects poorly on the entire platform reputation. So they came up with a $400 noisy, blinking box that needs its own space. These "features" are most often incompatible with female spousal units. Geeks love those gadgets, which is the market they conquered, leaving normal people behind. WP7 - they jury is still out on that one. Overall this looks like a bunch of products only a geek could love. Yes, they are cool, but they failed to live up to the Microsoft's then-ambitions - to change normal people's lives for the better.
- pedalpete 15y ago
  Just because you don't like/use the products is no reason to assault somebody else's work like that. Some of these products have resulted in millions of dollars and (apparently) some happy customers.
  - DenisM 15y ago
    It's not just me not liking a product. I claim these products (the ones I listed) have failed to achieve any significant goals, anything worthy of the opportunity. For example, yes, WHS sold quite a few devices, and it would be a huge success for a startup, but when you have the entire power of Microsoft behind your back, your goals need to be ambitious. I have outlined what I think WHS goals should have been - a backup solution for 80 percents of all platform users. In version "next" they could add file sharing for 80% of the users. Anything less than that is a waste of opportunity, and a huge disservice to Microsoft users, employees, and shareholders.

sriramk 15y ago

Submitted this and found out I was beaten by less than a minute :) Charlie is an extremely famous figure at MSFT for everything from COM, Windows Home Server to WP7. The first time I came across him was when I was in high school and I knew him as the guy behind COM (sorry, Charlie :) ) who wrote the funny foreword to Don Box's book. It is surreal to think that I actually met him and got to know him. This is a guy who knows how to build stuff. Big loss for MSFT.

CapitalistCartr 15y ago
" . . . to WP7." The first time I read this, I read " . . . to Word Perfect 7." Wait, what ? ! ? Maybe I'm getting old.
- flatline 15y ago
  Most US government agencies still use Word Perfect 10 or 11, so I have the same problem with the WP acronym.

politician 15y ago

This sounds like another nail in the increasingly metal-rich coffin of Silverlight, or am I reading too much into this?

solutionyogi 15y ago
How is this in anyway related to Silverlight?
- MartinCron 15y ago
  SilverLight has been presented as the preferred way to develop for Windows Phone 7, much to the dismay of some SilverLight web/desktop developers who find it a good technology for web/desktop work and fear that it will be phased out.
  - runjake 15y ago
    Really, it's been mis-presented by Microsoft. Developing a WP7 app normally involves C# and XAML (for most UI layout). The frameworks include the usual .NET stuff, as well as Silverlight and XNA (MS's gaming/graphics) frameworks. A competent .NET or Silverlight developer can move into the WP7 development world comfortably. I don't believe your comment about "dismay" is really accurate. I think Silverlight developers probably fall under one of two buckets: 1) "Cool! I can develop phone apps using my existing skillset!", or 2) "I don't really care about mobile development."
    - MartinCron 15y ago
      RE: dismay, I was thinking of a previous article I saw here on HN: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2644364 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2644364 although it seems that was a bit over-sensationalized. I agree that at least reasonable SL developers will fall into your two buckets.
      - runjake 15y ago
        Yeah, sounds a bit over-sensationalized. Microsoft is probably silent because they're not sure what technology the final project will use. Some exec could've ignorantly opened their mouth about "html5+js" and left the Win8 engineers groaning. It'd pretty clear to me that .NET/Silverlight/WPF aren't going away. They are too popular and there's too much activity around those technologies.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

ahmetalpbalkan 15y ago

He's just a GM. there are many GM's in WP division. It is really common to see MS GMs leaving for startups.

BarkMore 15y ago

Middle managers at Microsoft can be successful because of a number of skills not relevant in a startup: ability to run huge teams, Microsoft institutional knowledge, political maneuvering and so on. Some of these skills might even be harmful in a startup. It will be interesting to see how Kindel fairs outside of Microsoft.

felipemnoa 15y ago

>>but he says he still believes strongly in Microsoft’s long-term prospects against the likes of Apple and Google in the mobile market. I think he looses a lot of credibility saying something like this. What does he base his belief on? Better not say anything.

sriramk 15y ago
I still believe that too. Of course, when you work in a place for six years and have a lot of emotion connected to that place (see my farewell mail on my blog), it tends to bias your opinions :)

contextfree 15y ago

The article mentions this, but he actually left the WP team itself a while back, shortly after the initial release.