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What's to stop these people from just nuking themselves and claim it was their strategic enemy's stealth strike? If people want to go to war, it doesn't make a

by jjk166 5y ago

What's to stop these people from just nuking themselves and claim it was their strategic enemy's stealth strike? If people want to go to war, it doesn't make a lot of sense to wait around for an asteroid.

SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
Are you asking "what is a false flag operation?" or "when did the USA last do this (that we know of, outside of conspiracy theories) ?". The Wikipedia article (1) answers the first, and the the second was 1964 (2). Obviously, less expensive means are typically used than "just nuking themselves". 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag 2) https://allthatsinteresting.com/gulf-of-tonkin https://allthatsinteresting.com/gulf-of-tonkin
- jjk166 5y ago
  Neither, I am asking if you're going to do a false flag, why wait for an incredibly improbable scenario to use as pretext as opposed to just fabricating such a pretext? The whole point of the False Flag is the False part.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
    Typically you don't wait for an incredibly improbable scenario to use as pretext; but also if the unforeseen does happen, then it gets put to use. There's the saying "never let a crisis go to waste"
    - jjk166 5y ago
      But what are the odds that this asteroid is going to hit at exactly the moment you want to go to war, as opposed to too early when you are unprepared, or too late and the opportunity you're hoping to gain from the war is no longer available? Further, what happens when people start asking why China blew up Cleveland instead of some place more valuable? Or they ask why there was no build up to this attack? Or ask why your government did nothing to avert this? If you try to utilize a real disaster which you did not have foreknowledge of, you don't have time to carefully craft a story which stands up to basic scrutiny and run the serious risk of putting yourself in a worse position than you started with. Again, the whole point of a false flag is that you are choosing to make up something instead of relying on real life to justify what you want to do. You control the story, you can make it serve you however you like on your timetable. The saying "never let a crisis go to waste" is something that sounds smart and edgy so long as you don't think about it for more than 5 minutes.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
        > But what are the odds that this asteroid What are the odd that _something_ useful happens? a lot higher than the odds of _this specific thing_ happening > The saying "never let a crisis go to waste" is something that sounds smart and edgy so long as you don't think about it for more than 5 minutes. shrug. It is what it is. I feel no slight from your criticism - If you think that this is my saying then you didn't even google it. Clearly, it has lasted longer than 5 minutes so far. If you're not interested, ok.
        jjk166 5y ago
        We're discussing whether we should be concerned about an asteroid destroying a city being misinterpreted as a nuclear attack. Unless that _something_ is the destruction of a city by an asteroid, it is quite irrelevant. Perhaps you should google it > Charles Doyle of the University of Georgia, my coauthor on the forthcoming Yale Book of Modern Proverbs, has found that this expression is now commonly applied to economic or diplomatic crises that can be exploited to advance political agendas, but he traced it back at least as far as 1976, when M. F. Weiner wrote an article in the journal Medical Economics entitled “Don’t Waste a Crisis — Your Patient’s or Your Own.” Weiner meant by this that a medical crisis can be used to improve aspects of personality, mental health, or lifestyle. I obviously was not saying you made it up, quite the opposite. I was accusing you of parroting a proverb you thought sounded smart and edgy but never gave any serious thought to, and ridiculing the idea that anyone actually follows this proverb. [0] https://freakonomics.com/2009/08/13/quotes-uncovered-who-said-no-crisis-should-go-to-waste/ https://freakonomics.com/2009/08/13/quotes-uncovered-who-sai...
        SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
        It's widely used in politics, most famously by Rahm Emanuel in 2008, but I have seen it in other contexts as well. The Winston Churchill attribution seems false though. If you think those guys are "ridiculous" and unserious, then ok, you do you. I'm aware of that medical usage, though if you think it's the only relevant one you're not using google very well. Not being able to generalise seems to be your thing.

by jjk166 5y ago

SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago

Are you asking "what is a false flag operation?" or "when did the USA last do this (that we know of, outside of conspiracy theories) ?". The Wikipedia article (1) answers the first, and the the second was 1964 (2). Obviously, less expensive means are typically used than "just nuking themselves". 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag 2) https://allthatsinteresting.com/gulf-of-tonkin https://allthatsinteresting.com/gulf-of-tonkin

jjk166 5y ago
Neither, I am asking if you're going to do a false flag, why wait for an incredibly improbable scenario to use as pretext as opposed to just fabricating such a pretext? The whole point of the False Flag is the False part.
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
  Typically you don't wait for an incredibly improbable scenario to use as pretext; but also if the unforeseen does happen, then it gets put to use. There's the saying "never let a crisis go to waste"
  - jjk166 5y ago
    But what are the odds that this asteroid is going to hit at exactly the moment you want to go to war, as opposed to too early when you are unprepared, or too late and the opportunity you're hoping to gain from the war is no longer available? Further, what happens when people start asking why China blew up Cleveland instead of some place more valuable? Or they ask why there was no build up to this attack? Or ask why your government did nothing to avert this? If you try to utilize a real disaster which you did not have foreknowledge of, you don't have time to carefully craft a story which stands up to basic scrutiny and run the serious risk of putting yourself in a worse position than you started with. Again, the whole point of a false flag is that you are choosing to make up something instead of relying on real life to justify what you want to do. You control the story, you can make it serve you however you like on your timetable. The saying "never let a crisis go to waste" is something that sounds smart and edgy so long as you don't think about it for more than 5 minutes.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
      > But what are the odds that this asteroid What are the odd that _something_ useful happens? a lot higher than the odds of _this specific thing_ happening > The saying "never let a crisis go to waste" is something that sounds smart and edgy so long as you don't think about it for more than 5 minutes. shrug. It is what it is. I feel no slight from your criticism - If you think that this is my saying then you didn't even google it. Clearly, it has lasted longer than 5 minutes so far. If you're not interested, ok.
      - jjk166 5y ago
        We're discussing whether we should be concerned about an asteroid destroying a city being misinterpreted as a nuclear attack. Unless that _something_ is the destruction of a city by an asteroid, it is quite irrelevant. Perhaps you should google it > Charles Doyle of the University of Georgia, my coauthor on the forthcoming Yale Book of Modern Proverbs, has found that this expression is now commonly applied to economic or diplomatic crises that can be exploited to advance political agendas, but he traced it back at least as far as 1976, when M. F. Weiner wrote an article in the journal Medical Economics entitled “Don’t Waste a Crisis — Your Patient’s or Your Own.” Weiner meant by this that a medical crisis can be used to improve aspects of personality, mental health, or lifestyle. I obviously was not saying you made it up, quite the opposite. I was accusing you of parroting a proverb you thought sounded smart and edgy but never gave any serious thought to, and ridiculing the idea that anyone actually follows this proverb. [0] https://freakonomics.com/2009/08/13/quotes-uncovered-who-said-no-crisis-should-go-to-waste/ https://freakonomics.com/2009/08/13/quotes-uncovered-who-sai...
        SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
        It's widely used in politics, most famously by Rahm Emanuel in 2008, but I have seen it in other contexts as well. The Winston Churchill attribution seems false though. If you think those guys are "ridiculous" and unserious, then ok, you do you. I'm aware of that medical usage, though if you think it's the only relevant one you're not using google very well. Not being able to generalise seems to be your thing.