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Leaked Apple Training Videos Show How It Undermines Third-Party Repair

75 points by pier25 5y ago

mikece 5y ago
How does this not fall under the "abusing one's dominant market position" section of antitrust laws?
- toper-centage 5y ago
  Because according to Apple vs Epic, Apple doesn't have a monopoly. We're shit out of luck.
  - foepys 5y ago
    You do not need to be a monopoly to be get punished by anti-trust fines.
    - hrid88ry4g 5y ago
      I don't see the problem with apple not wanting hack shops servicing their products. There's no shortage of competition in the space, people choose Apple because of the perceived value of the finished product and that includes things like their design/repair choices.
gorbypark 5y ago
If I am going to an Apple certified repair center, I would expect they are using genuine parts. I think of it like a car dealership, you're going to pay a lot but get genuine parts. Usually it's a much better idea to go to an independent mechanic and save a ton of money (there's a reason dealerships are referred to as the "stealership" by many people).
- rasz 5y ago
  Independent mechanic has close to zero problem (except for brands copying Apple like Tesla) going to Oreilly /AutoZone /Advance /one of Euro distributors and ordering brand new OEM original part. Example https://www.znmperformance.com/bmw-electric-water-pump-vdo-11519455978/ https://www.znmperformance.com/bmw-electric-water-pump-vdo-1... you get exact brand new part as mounted in the factory. Funnily enough I first found that pump when replying to someone on one of previous Right to Repair threads after OP claimed dealer charged him $1.2K for water pump https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27823860 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27823860 Third party Apple repairman cant do that. 'Apple certified repair center' is a fancy name for a remailer - the program actually prohibits you from doing any repair beyond replacing battery and screen, and those are supplied to you _after mailing in original ones_ and at close to _fully working second hand device_ prices.
donmcronald 5y ago
> Factories will often overproduce Apple parts like screens then sell the excess to independent vendors. In fairness to Apple, that’s not fair at all. I hope right to repair keeps gaining traction. If I need to buy a laptop any time soon it’s going to be a Framework. I replaced a DIMM in my current laptop (ThinkPad) and would have been pretty upset if I had to throw it away because of soldered RAM. My fear with authorized repair programs as the only option is the risk of changing what’s considered fact. After a (people) generation where all training and education says “this is impossible,” people will believe it. The manufacturers get to dictate the new reality with no pushback from knowledgeable opponents because those opponents won’t exist anymore. I’ve personally fixed many vehicle problems, a hot tub, a stove, a dishwasher, a fridge, a furnace, etc.. I’m 100% positive the manufacturers are lying about the complexity of everything and confident in saying that a lot of the complexity is intentionally engineered to be complex. People want to fix their own stuff and they’ll try no matter what. The manufacturers like to tout the risks of DIY repair, but the biggest risk, by far IMO, is a lack of official schematics and docs. The manufacturers are literally creating the risk by withholding repair resources and forcing everyone to trust random internet strangers. Learn how to discharge capacitors if you’re going to DIY fix anything :-)
- vlovich123 5y ago
  > In fairness to Apple, that’s not fair at all. Why? Apple really pressures manufacturers to squeeze out its profit margin as much as possible. If the consequence of that is that factories make up the difference on their profit needs by overproducing & reselling those components, that seems like a natural penalty for Apple in the way it conducts business.
  - FuckButtons 5y ago
    At best that’s a naive interpretation, Chinese manufacturing firms don’t do this to “make up the difference” they do it because they can. They don’t just do it to apple, it’s standard practice, in spite of international ip protections.
    - 5y ago
shosko 5y ago
Everybody knows that 3rd party parts, whether for your car, iphone, or dishwasher, may not be manufactured to the same standards of quality than a genuine part. I have no problem with Apple ensuring that an AASP uses only genuine parts. If I don't want to do that and pay less, I can always go to U Break I Fix
- 28605271 5y ago
  >I have no problem with Apple ensuring that an AASP uses only genuine parts. If I don't want to do that and pay less, I can always go to U Break I Fix Yeah, I'm not sure what the story is here. 3rd party repair shops exist. I like that Apple keeps a close eye on what AASP is putting in people's phones -- it prevents AASP from baiting-and-switching the customers by using Apple's logo but putting in inferior, cheaper 3P parts.
- tracerbulletx 5y ago
  Yeah a lot of times they're manufactured to be better.
  - omegalulw 5y ago
    Do you have a source for this for Apple parts? I find that hard to believe.
    - tracerbulletx 5y ago
      I just meant for the aftermarket parts market in general since the top level comment was referring to them generally. I guess my point was just in many markets OEM parts are not the best available parts, and if that's the case for electronics it's probably because they make it hard for legit companies to legally make the parts leaving only the shady ones.
- LocalH 5y ago
  At this point, Apple tries to ensure you can't even use authentic parts if you're not "authorized".
alanwreath 5y ago
What if we mixed in the possibility that a non-genuine apple screen is actually also a keyboard aaaand could be cheaper because it includes software that in some way is able to phone home. I realize there are many layers of tinfoil here but it was fun to imagine nonetheless.
- duskwuff 5y ago
  Another common pattern is for non-genuine parts to contain components which return falsified data -- for instance, batteries with controllers which report an inaccurate capacity, or screens which report bogus touch screen calibration parameters. (These are both real scenarios which have been observed in grey-market iPhone parts.)
  - MMS21 5y ago
    You already cannot use true tone if your screen is not genuine, idk anyone who uses it and if that is really much of a deal breaker, I assume the new iP13 will probably lose refresh rates above 60 when detected as non genuine, only time will tell.
snicker7 5y ago
“Video” is a stretch. There was like one frame a second.
mmmBacon 5y ago
Reminds me of same stuff you hear at a car dealership.
beezischillin 5y ago
Louis Rossmann covered this on his channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B18NhlBSjQc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B18NhlBSjQc I found his opinion on this to be both informative and interesting, seeing how he's a right to repair advocate and activist, yet he doesn't shy away from correcting points that turn into propaganda.

75 points by pier25 5y ago

mikece 5y ago

How does this not fall under the "abusing one's dominant market position" section of antitrust laws?

toper-centage 5y ago
Because according to Apple vs Epic, Apple doesn't have a monopoly. We're shit out of luck.
- foepys 5y ago
  You do not need to be a monopoly to be get punished by anti-trust fines.
  - hrid88ry4g 5y ago
    I don't see the problem with apple not wanting hack shops servicing their products. There's no shortage of competition in the space, people choose Apple because of the perceived value of the finished product and that includes things like their design/repair choices.

gorbypark 5y ago

If I am going to an Apple certified repair center, I would expect they are using genuine parts. I think of it like a car dealership, you're going to pay a lot but get genuine parts. Usually it's a much better idea to go to an independent mechanic and save a ton of money (there's a reason dealerships are referred to as the "stealership" by many people).

rasz 5y ago
Independent mechanic has close to zero problem (except for brands copying Apple like Tesla) going to Oreilly /AutoZone /Advance /one of Euro distributors and ordering brand new OEM original part. Example https://www.znmperformance.com/bmw-electric-water-pump-vdo-11519455978/ https://www.znmperformance.com/bmw-electric-water-pump-vdo-1... you get exact brand new part as mounted in the factory. Funnily enough I first found that pump when replying to someone on one of previous Right to Repair threads after OP claimed dealer charged him $1.2K for water pump https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27823860 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27823860 Third party Apple repairman cant do that. 'Apple certified repair center' is a fancy name for a remailer - the program actually prohibits you from doing any repair beyond replacing battery and screen, and those are supplied to you _after mailing in original ones_ and at close to _fully working second hand device_ prices.

donmcronald 5y ago

> Factories will often overproduce Apple parts like screens then sell the excess to independent vendors. In fairness to Apple, that’s not fair at all. I hope right to repair keeps gaining traction. If I need to buy a laptop any time soon it’s going to be a Framework. I replaced a DIMM in my current laptop (ThinkPad) and would have been pretty upset if I had to throw it away because of soldered RAM. My fear with authorized repair programs as the only option is the risk of changing what’s considered fact. After a (people) generation where all training and education says “this is impossible,” people will believe it. The manufacturers get to dictate the new reality with no pushback from knowledgeable opponents because those opponents won’t exist anymore. I’ve personally fixed many vehicle problems, a hot tub, a stove, a dishwasher, a fridge, a furnace, etc.. I’m 100% positive the manufacturers are lying about the complexity of everything and confident in saying that a lot of the complexity is intentionally engineered to be complex. People want to fix their own stuff and they’ll try no matter what. The manufacturers like to tout the risks of DIY repair, but the biggest risk, by far IMO, is a lack of official schematics and docs. The manufacturers are literally creating the risk by withholding repair resources and forcing everyone to trust random internet strangers. Learn how to discharge capacitors if you’re going to DIY fix anything :-)

vlovich123 5y ago
> In fairness to Apple, that’s not fair at all. Why? Apple really pressures manufacturers to squeeze out its profit margin as much as possible. If the consequence of that is that factories make up the difference on their profit needs by overproducing & reselling those components, that seems like a natural penalty for Apple in the way it conducts business.
- FuckButtons 5y ago
  At best that’s a naive interpretation, Chinese manufacturing firms don’t do this to “make up the difference” they do it because they can. They don’t just do it to apple, it’s standard practice, in spite of international ip protections.
  - 5y ago

shosko 5y ago

Everybody knows that 3rd party parts, whether for your car, iphone, or dishwasher, may not be manufactured to the same standards of quality than a genuine part. I have no problem with Apple ensuring that an AASP uses only genuine parts. If I don't want to do that and pay less, I can always go to U Break I Fix

28605271 5y ago
>I have no problem with Apple ensuring that an AASP uses only genuine parts. If I don't want to do that and pay less, I can always go to U Break I Fix Yeah, I'm not sure what the story is here. 3rd party repair shops exist. I like that Apple keeps a close eye on what AASP is putting in people's phones -- it prevents AASP from baiting-and-switching the customers by using Apple's logo but putting in inferior, cheaper 3P parts.
tracerbulletx 5y ago
Yeah a lot of times they're manufactured to be better.
- omegalulw 5y ago
  Do you have a source for this for Apple parts? I find that hard to believe.
  - tracerbulletx 5y ago
    I just meant for the aftermarket parts market in general since the top level comment was referring to them generally. I guess my point was just in many markets OEM parts are not the best available parts, and if that's the case for electronics it's probably because they make it hard for legit companies to legally make the parts leaving only the shady ones.
LocalH 5y ago
At this point, Apple tries to ensure you can't even use authentic parts if you're not "authorized".

alanwreath 5y ago

What if we mixed in the possibility that a non-genuine apple screen is actually also a keyboard aaaand could be cheaper because it includes software that in some way is able to phone home. I realize there are many layers of tinfoil here but it was fun to imagine nonetheless.

duskwuff 5y ago
Another common pattern is for non-genuine parts to contain components which return falsified data -- for instance, batteries with controllers which report an inaccurate capacity, or screens which report bogus touch screen calibration parameters. (These are both real scenarios which have been observed in grey-market iPhone parts.)
- MMS21 5y ago
  You already cannot use true tone if your screen is not genuine, idk anyone who uses it and if that is really much of a deal breaker, I assume the new iP13 will probably lose refresh rates above 60 when detected as non genuine, only time will tell.

snicker7 5y ago

“Video” is a stretch. There was like one frame a second.

mmmBacon 5y ago

Reminds me of same stuff you hear at a car dealership.

beezischillin 5y ago

Louis Rossmann covered this on his channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B18NhlBSjQc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B18NhlBSjQc I found his opinion on this to be both informative and interesting, seeing how he's a right to repair advocate and activist, yet he doesn't shy away from correcting points that turn into propaganda.