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Sorry if I may have come up as a Nix professional/proponent. I'm actually a nix beginner and as can be seen in this thread, I've asked the author similar questi

Sorry if I may have come up as a Nix professional/proponent. I'm actually a nix beginner and as can be seen in this thread, I've asked the author similar question to yours. Using Ubuntu, I have been bitten by glibc and other dependency mismatch in my projects and I'm looking for something more elegant than docker/VBox. I've read posts from both sides of this discussion. > Oh. Wait. There's literally no such way. I think there is? Check to see if the nixpkgs history have that version (+), if not, patch the derivation (could be as simple as bumping the version and recalculating the hash, or, doing so could cause a breakage in one of the transitive dependencies, at which point, you have to fix that also (meaning a version increment of decrement for the dependency or more. Essentially you have to build the specific ruby version down to all its dependencies) (+) How can we see what versions are available in nixpkgs history? It seems we have to use third-party webservices! I agree with you here that this should have been implemented in the nix tooling itself. I know of two such services: https://4shells.com/nixdb/pkg/ruby/2.6.6 https://4shells.com/nixdb/pkg/ruby/2.6.6 https://lazamar.co.uk/nix-versions/?channel=nixpkgs-unstable&package=ruby https://lazamar.co.uk/nix-versions/?channel=nixpkgs-unstable... I think this also answers that quote from the github issue. > What was this solution again? From what I understood, in the project `.nix` file, we inherent from a forked nixpkgs repo which has our patched `default.nix` in the ruby folder, for building ruby. (Nix pros, correct me if I'm wrong here). Now we have to build all deps locally since a matching hash would not be present on Nix cache servers. Now, with nvm, how could you guarantee that a particular version would not conflict with one the host OSs low-level libraries (Like glibC)? The difficulty and complexity of patching the Nix derivation has to do with this part. In Ubuntu/Debian, you can't simply mess with system level low level libraries.

dmitriid 5y ago
>> Oh. Wait. There's literally no such way. > I think there is? There is no official way to do that. There's no history. There are no tools in nix to do that. As you noted, you have to rely on the kindness of strangers to provide this service. Here's lazamar's own explanation why he built the tool: https://lazamar.github.io/download-specific-package-version-with-nix/ https://lazamar.github.io/download-specific-package-version-... Look at the beginning of the "automating" section to see what is required to do all that with nix. On top of that, in the entire discussion here exactly one person could actually show how to pin something to a version, so it's poorly documented, extremely complex and not really understood even for people who propose nix. > Now, with nvm, how could you guarantee that a particular version would not conflict with one the host OSs low-level libraries You probably don't, or stick it in a container somewhere. But this is about tradeoffs: does nix provide enough tradeoffs to use this complicated, complex and poorly documented system?
- ducktective 5y ago
  But the Nix way (how alien and complicated) is the theoretical sound way of handling dependencies. The docker solution is a blanket over a mess. Hopefully, documentation and tooling can be improved for a theoretically good but badly implemented solution. The other way around is not possible.
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    > But the Nix way (how alien and complicated) is the theoretical sound way of handling dependencies. The approach may be sound, but the implementation and the user experience is atrocious, and can be quite easily[1] improved. [1] Easily as in: there have been multiple suggestions on what should be done to improve experience, but nix's codebase may not be conductive to that https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/93327#issuecomment-778546569 https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/93327#issuecomment-7... and nix contributors don't even see this as an issue https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/93327#issuecomment-661986395 https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/93327#issuecomment-6...
Arkh4m 5y ago
That's the point: without using Nix, you'd have to do LD_LIBRARY_PATH hacking to have two programs use two different versions of glibc. When people say "oh nix looks so complicated I can do this using bash scripts" I reply "well show me these beautifully expressive and simple bash scripts then".
- ducktective 5y ago
  I updated my reply. Can you confirm that inheriting from a forked nixpkgs with a patched default.nix in ruby directory is the solution for cases that a particular version was not ever present in history?
  - Arkh4m 5y ago
    There is no need to literally fork the nixpkgs repo. Most language derivations were written with the idea of supporting multiple versions at the same time. In this guide (https://www.breakds.org/post/nix-shell-for-nodejs https://www.breakds.org/post/nix-shell-for-nodejs), the key example is this one: let pkgs = import <nixpkgs> {}; buildNodejs = pkgs.callPackage <nixpkgs/pkgs/development/web/nodejs/nodejs.nix> {}; nodejs-8 = buildNodejs { enableNpm = true; # We need npm, do we? version = "8.17.0"; sha256 = "1zzn7s9wpz1cr4vzrr8n6l1mvg6gdvcfm6f24h1ky9rb93drc3av"; }; in pkgs.mkShell rec { name = "webdev"; buildInputs = with pkgs; [ nodejs-8 (yarn.override { nodejs = nodejs-8; }) ]; } where we import the normal nixpkgs, then we use `callPackage` to re-use the code that was written by the Nix mantainers, and we specify our own version and SHA. If the derivation hadn't been written to be reusable what you can do is to copy this whole directory https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/tree/nixos-21.05/pkgs/development/web/nodejs https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/tree/nixos-21.05/pkgs/devel... to your local project and import the nix files locally. In this case, some of the artifact might be missing from the nix cache and you might need to compile some from source. We do this in some cases and upload the artifacts to our private store on https://www.cachix.org https://www.cachix.org so that no engineer has to recompile them again on their own computer.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  Funny how you're talking about how horrible it is to install glibc, when the entire reason lazamar's tool exists is that he couldn't figure out how to install a specific version of a tool using nix https://lazamar.github.io/download-specific-package-version-with-nix/ https://lazamar.github.io/download-specific-package-version-... "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?" Also, not all of us depend on glibc or changes in glibc. Making this solely about glibc while ignoring the larger issue is... can't find a proper word for it. (and of course there are issues with glibc in nix as well, https://discourse.nixos.org/t/clarification-on-package-names-and-versions/9819/6 https://discourse.nixos.org/t/clarification-on-package-names... because glibc is weird in itself)

dmitriid 5y ago

>> Oh. Wait. There's literally no such way. > I think there is? There is no official way to do that. There's no history. There are no tools in nix to do that. As you noted, you have to rely on the kindness of strangers to provide this service. Here's lazamar's own explanation why he built the tool: https://lazamar.github.io/download-specific-package-version-with-nix/ https://lazamar.github.io/download-specific-package-version-... Look at the beginning of the "automating" section to see what is required to do all that with nix. On top of that, in the entire discussion here exactly one person could actually show how to pin something to a version, so it's poorly documented, extremely complex and not really understood even for people who propose nix. > Now, with nvm, how could you guarantee that a particular version would not conflict with one the host OSs low-level libraries You probably don't, or stick it in a container somewhere. But this is about tradeoffs: does nix provide enough tradeoffs to use this complicated, complex and poorly documented system?

ducktective 5y ago
But the Nix way (how alien and complicated) is the theoretical sound way of handling dependencies. The docker solution is a blanket over a mess. Hopefully, documentation and tooling can be improved for a theoretically good but badly implemented solution. The other way around is not possible.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > But the Nix way (how alien and complicated) is the theoretical sound way of handling dependencies. The approach may be sound, but the implementation and the user experience is atrocious, and can be quite easily[1] improved. [1] Easily as in: there have been multiple suggestions on what should be done to improve experience, but nix's codebase may not be conductive to that https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/93327#issuecomment-778546569 https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/93327#issuecomment-7... and nix contributors don't even see this as an issue https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/93327#issuecomment-661986395 https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/93327#issuecomment-6...

Arkh4m 5y ago

That's the point: without using Nix, you'd have to do LD_LIBRARY_PATH hacking to have two programs use two different versions of glibc. When people say "oh nix looks so complicated I can do this using bash scripts" I reply "well show me these beautifully expressive and simple bash scripts then".

ducktective 5y ago
I updated my reply. Can you confirm that inheriting from a forked nixpkgs with a patched default.nix in ruby directory is the solution for cases that a particular version was not ever present in history?
- Arkh4m 5y ago
  There is no need to literally fork the nixpkgs repo. Most language derivations were written with the idea of supporting multiple versions at the same time. In this guide (https://www.breakds.org/post/nix-shell-for-nodejs https://www.breakds.org/post/nix-shell-for-nodejs), the key example is this one: let pkgs = import <nixpkgs> {}; buildNodejs = pkgs.callPackage <nixpkgs/pkgs/development/web/nodejs/nodejs.nix> {}; nodejs-8 = buildNodejs { enableNpm = true; # We need npm, do we? version = "8.17.0"; sha256 = "1zzn7s9wpz1cr4vzrr8n6l1mvg6gdvcfm6f24h1ky9rb93drc3av"; }; in pkgs.mkShell rec { name = "webdev"; buildInputs = with pkgs; [ nodejs-8 (yarn.override { nodejs = nodejs-8; }) ]; } where we import the normal nixpkgs, then we use `callPackage` to re-use the code that was written by the Nix mantainers, and we specify our own version and SHA. If the derivation hadn't been written to be reusable what you can do is to copy this whole directory https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/tree/nixos-21.05/pkgs/development/web/nodejs https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/tree/nixos-21.05/pkgs/devel... to your local project and import the nix files locally. In this case, some of the artifact might be missing from the nix cache and you might need to compile some from source. We do this in some cases and upload the artifacts to our private store on https://www.cachix.org https://www.cachix.org so that no engineer has to recompile them again on their own computer.
dmitriid 5y ago
Funny how you're talking about how horrible it is to install glibc, when the entire reason lazamar's tool exists is that he couldn't figure out how to install a specific version of a tool using nix https://lazamar.github.io/download-specific-package-version-with-nix/ https://lazamar.github.io/download-specific-package-version-... "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?" Also, not all of us depend on glibc or changes in glibc. Making this solely about glibc while ignoring the larger issue is... can't find a proper word for it. (and of course there are issues with glibc in nix as well, https://discourse.nixos.org/t/clarification-on-package-names-and-versions/9819/6 https://discourse.nixos.org/t/clarification-on-package-names... because glibc is weird in itself)