8 ms·

How's the regulation there? I'm often riding Limes which are capped at 25kph (about 15 mph, I think), and I keep comparing my speed with delivery people (Glovo,

How's the regulation there? I'm often riding Limes which are capped at 25kph (about 15 mph, I think), and I keep comparing my speed with delivery people (Glovo, Uber and so on). Turns out the 25kph is a very well chosen point - it's about as fast as a bike rider on a delivery - maybe 1-2kph faster than the average, and a bit less than one who's really in a hurry. If your legislation allows for faster electric vehicles to share bike lanes, that's a big mistake IMO. Impact energy is proportional with the square of the speed, so crashing at 35 is already double the damage. 50kph is four times as bad, not to mention reaction times.

avianlyric 5y ago
Not the person your replying too, also don’t live in the Netherlands just fascinated with those bike infrastructure, but my understanding is that this is a historical quirk that came into existence when smaller mopeds where less common. In Amsterdam it used to be possible to ride mopeds under a certain power on bike paths, and these bikes could be identified by their number plates. Additionally micro cars, that in theory are meant to be accessibility devices for those with physical impairments are still allowed. But this is all slowly going away due to the exact issues you mention. The rise of cheap electric vehicles has meant that occasional fast vehicles sharing generous bike infrastructure has gone from acceptable to frustrating and soon to be dangerous. I think these rules are handled at the city/municipality level. So the rules are different city-to-city in the Netherlands, with some cities changing the rules quicker than others. But the writing is on the wall, cycle lanes in cities will soon be bikes, e-bikes, and more strictly regulated micro cars only in the near future.
teekert 5y ago
It's difficult to find examples because obviously Google Streetview cars don't enter pure bike paths, but here is one of these paths where you won't make friends with a somewhat broader and faster electric personal transport device [0]. A better example and one where I did ride around on an e-chopper, annoying people on bikes ;) [1] (not me in the image). These small path are pretty common in nature reserves here [2]. [0]: https://goo.gl/maps/yZXH4ggVQ6vXRcNy9 https://goo.gl/maps/yZXH4ggVQ6vXRcNy9 [1]: https://weekendtoerist.nl/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/mooiste-plekken-drents-friese-wold-fietsroute-13.jpg https://weekendtoerist.nl/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/mooiste... [2]: https://www.myfootprints.nl/nederland/fietsen-en-wandelen-in-het-drents-friese-wold/ https://www.myfootprints.nl/nederland/fietsen-en-wandelen-in...
- radu_floricica 5y ago
  Yeah, in practice you do have single lane sized paths used in both directions, and having as meter wide "truck" coming from the opposite direction won't be pleasant. Well, this is the kind of problem I like having - it means the new e-vehicle ecology is working. I think there are plenty of solutions for this, enough so we don't have to worry this early. Easiest is simply having a "no cargo" sign at the entrance of smaller bidirectional paths. But in practice, I think we'll see a mix of municipalities increasing lane size and producers coming up with smaller cargo vehicles.
  - datavirtue 5y ago
    People pull kids and pets in cargo trailers a lot.
    - radu_floricica 5y ago
      His problem is with meter-wide ones, which yeah, are a bit of a stretch. But like I said I think it'll fix by itself - they're not the kind of vehicles you take on a forest pleasure ride anyways. They're probably more useful for business use.
    - teekert 5y ago
      It's also the combination with the higher speed. But indeed, in cities people often have broad e-cargo bikes [0] [0]: https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=bakfiets&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=bakfiets&iax=images&ia=imag...
- Someone 5y ago
  > because obviously Google Streetview cars don't enter pure bike paths Their cars don’t, but their bicycles sometimes do (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Street_View#Data_capturing_equipment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Street_View#Data_captur... shows a trike. At the bottom of the page, there even is a photo of a pedestrian wearing a camera backpack)
mrsuprawsm 5y ago
Broadly there's a few categories of bicycle paths/roads in NL: - bicycle path (fietspad) - bicycle + moped path (bromfietspad) (same as a bicycle path but a bit wider) - the road In terms of the vehicles, there's also a few categories: - bicycles (i.e. unpowered) - e-bike with pedal assistance that stops at 25km/h - moped (max speed 25km/h, "snorfiets") - high-speed e-bike ("speed-pedelec"), max speed 45km/h - moped (max speed 45km/h, "bromfiets") The first 3 types of vehicles can usually ride on both a bicycle path or a bicycle + moped path [1]. There is no explicit speed limit other than the 25km/h limit on the e-bike/moped itself. (I guess that on a non-electric bike you can ride faster than 25km/h, as fast as you can go) The second 2 types of vehicles can ride on a bicycle + moped path, but must otherwise ride on the road. For the second 2 types of vehicles, you need a numberplate and a helmet, and a mirror. On a bike + moped path inside the city, you can ride 30km/h, outside the city 40km/h, and on the road, 45km/h (less if the road has an explicit speed limit). A table illustrating this: https://www.catchlegal.nl/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Afbeelding-artikel-snorfietsers.png https://www.catchlegal.nl/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Afbeeld... (snelheid == speed, toegestaan == allowed). [1] notable exception being inside the city of Amsterdam, where mopeds must ride on the road with a helmet (which is not normally required elsewhere), but e-bikes can remain on the bike path.
- Animats 5y ago
  Here's the chart for California.[1] That's very similar. [1] https://currentebikes.com/ebike-classes-california/ https://currentebikes.com/ebike-classes-california/
sneak 5y ago
I think people who are concerned about safety and people who ride electric scooters are mutually exclusive groups. Those things are death traps.
- Toutouxc 5y ago
  Why? I've ridden hundreds of kilometers on both the Xiaomi Scooter Pro 2 (the tall, small-wheels kind that companies like Lime use) and a custom built electric kickbike and I don't consider them any more dangerous than a normal bicycle. They reach similar speeds and have similar acceleration and braking distances.
  - datavirtue 5y ago
    Seasoned cyclist here...False.
    - Toutouxc 5y ago
      I'm also a pretty seasoned cyclist (as in "a nice XC bike, wild downhill riding, steep technical sections, hitting speeds over 60 km/h" etc) and compared to anything you can do on a low-cost mountain bike, the e-scooters are very tame.
  - withinboredom 5y ago
    Have you had to slam on the brakes in an emergency on them? That’s what makes them dangerous, because at that speed, slamming the brakes can get you killed.
    - FeepingCreature 5y ago
      Yes, why would that be an issue? Maybe if you're standing on it weird. I have a scooter that I use to ride to work every day (ePF-1); I usually stand sideways with one foot in front, and as far as I can tell, braking is pretty stable in that pose. I could see braking being an issue if you're standing with both feet in parallel because it throws you onto and over the steering bar. But that's why you shouldn't stand that way. If you're sideways and you lose balance, you just jam your hip/thigh into the steering bar to stay stable, same as you do when driving one-handed. edit: I just google image searched "how to ride a scooter" and holy shit, are people suicidal?! Practically everyone in those pictures would go flying over the handlebars in an emergency brake. If that's the norm, I can see why people think escooters are dangerous.

avianlyric 5y ago

Not the person your replying too, also don’t live in the Netherlands just fascinated with those bike infrastructure, but my understanding is that this is a historical quirk that came into existence when smaller mopeds where less common. In Amsterdam it used to be possible to ride mopeds under a certain power on bike paths, and these bikes could be identified by their number plates. Additionally micro cars, that in theory are meant to be accessibility devices for those with physical impairments are still allowed. But this is all slowly going away due to the exact issues you mention. The rise of cheap electric vehicles has meant that occasional fast vehicles sharing generous bike infrastructure has gone from acceptable to frustrating and soon to be dangerous. I think these rules are handled at the city/municipality level. So the rules are different city-to-city in the Netherlands, with some cities changing the rules quicker than others. But the writing is on the wall, cycle lanes in cities will soon be bikes, e-bikes, and more strictly regulated micro cars only in the near future.

teekert 5y ago

It's difficult to find examples because obviously Google Streetview cars don't enter pure bike paths, but here is one of these paths where you won't make friends with a somewhat broader and faster electric personal transport device [0]. A better example and one where I did ride around on an e-chopper, annoying people on bikes ;) [1] (not me in the image). These small path are pretty common in nature reserves here [2]. [0]: https://goo.gl/maps/yZXH4ggVQ6vXRcNy9 https://goo.gl/maps/yZXH4ggVQ6vXRcNy9 [1]: https://weekendtoerist.nl/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/mooiste-plekken-drents-friese-wold-fietsroute-13.jpg https://weekendtoerist.nl/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/mooiste... [2]: https://www.myfootprints.nl/nederland/fietsen-en-wandelen-in-het-drents-friese-wold/ https://www.myfootprints.nl/nederland/fietsen-en-wandelen-in...

radu_floricica 5y ago
Yeah, in practice you do have single lane sized paths used in both directions, and having as meter wide "truck" coming from the opposite direction won't be pleasant. Well, this is the kind of problem I like having - it means the new e-vehicle ecology is working. I think there are plenty of solutions for this, enough so we don't have to worry this early. Easiest is simply having a "no cargo" sign at the entrance of smaller bidirectional paths. But in practice, I think we'll see a mix of municipalities increasing lane size and producers coming up with smaller cargo vehicles.
- datavirtue 5y ago
  People pull kids and pets in cargo trailers a lot.
  - radu_floricica 5y ago
    His problem is with meter-wide ones, which yeah, are a bit of a stretch. But like I said I think it'll fix by itself - they're not the kind of vehicles you take on a forest pleasure ride anyways. They're probably more useful for business use.
  - teekert 5y ago
    It's also the combination with the higher speed. But indeed, in cities people often have broad e-cargo bikes [0] [0]: https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=bakfiets&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=bakfiets&iax=images&ia=imag...
Someone 5y ago
> because obviously Google Streetview cars don't enter pure bike paths Their cars don’t, but their bicycles sometimes do (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Street_View#Data_capturing_equipment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Street_View#Data_captur... shows a trike. At the bottom of the page, there even is a photo of a pedestrian wearing a camera backpack)

mrsuprawsm 5y ago

Broadly there's a few categories of bicycle paths/roads in NL: - bicycle path (fietspad) - bicycle + moped path (bromfietspad) (same as a bicycle path but a bit wider) - the road In terms of the vehicles, there's also a few categories: - bicycles (i.e. unpowered) - e-bike with pedal assistance that stops at 25km/h - moped (max speed 25km/h, "snorfiets") - high-speed e-bike ("speed-pedelec"), max speed 45km/h - moped (max speed 45km/h, "bromfiets") The first 3 types of vehicles can usually ride on both a bicycle path or a bicycle + moped path [1]. There is no explicit speed limit other than the 25km/h limit on the e-bike/moped itself. (I guess that on a non-electric bike you can ride faster than 25km/h, as fast as you can go) The second 2 types of vehicles can ride on a bicycle + moped path, but must otherwise ride on the road. For the second 2 types of vehicles, you need a numberplate and a helmet, and a mirror. On a bike + moped path inside the city, you can ride 30km/h, outside the city 40km/h, and on the road, 45km/h (less if the road has an explicit speed limit). A table illustrating this: https://www.catchlegal.nl/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Afbeelding-artikel-snorfietsers.png https://www.catchlegal.nl/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Afbeeld... (snelheid == speed, toegestaan == allowed). [1] notable exception being inside the city of Amsterdam, where mopeds must ride on the road with a helmet (which is not normally required elsewhere), but e-bikes can remain on the bike path.

Animats 5y ago
Here's the chart for California.[1] That's very similar. [1] https://currentebikes.com/ebike-classes-california/ https://currentebikes.com/ebike-classes-california/

sneak 5y ago

I think people who are concerned about safety and people who ride electric scooters are mutually exclusive groups. Those things are death traps.

Toutouxc 5y ago
Why? I've ridden hundreds of kilometers on both the Xiaomi Scooter Pro 2 (the tall, small-wheels kind that companies like Lime use) and a custom built electric kickbike and I don't consider them any more dangerous than a normal bicycle. They reach similar speeds and have similar acceleration and braking distances.
- datavirtue 5y ago
  Seasoned cyclist here...False.
  - Toutouxc 5y ago
    I'm also a pretty seasoned cyclist (as in "a nice XC bike, wild downhill riding, steep technical sections, hitting speeds over 60 km/h" etc) and compared to anything you can do on a low-cost mountain bike, the e-scooters are very tame.
- withinboredom 5y ago
  Have you had to slam on the brakes in an emergency on them? That’s what makes them dangerous, because at that speed, slamming the brakes can get you killed.
  - FeepingCreature 5y ago
    Yes, why would that be an issue? Maybe if you're standing on it weird. I have a scooter that I use to ride to work every day (ePF-1); I usually stand sideways with one foot in front, and as far as I can tell, braking is pretty stable in that pose. I could see braking being an issue if you're standing with both feet in parallel because it throws you onto and over the steering bar. But that's why you shouldn't stand that way. If you're sideways and you lose balance, you just jam your hip/thigh into the steering bar to stay stable, same as you do when driving one-handed. edit: I just google image searched "how to ride a scooter" and holy shit, are people suicidal?! Practically everyone in those pictures would go flying over the handlebars in an emergency brake. If that's the norm, I can see why people think escooters are dangerous.