4 ms·

For all the Logo fans out here, here are some more Logo resources: 1. IBM PC Logo executable and manual (1983): https://winworldpc.com/product/ibm-logo/100 htt

• DonHopkins 5y ago
  Thank you for that! Here's some more stuff I posted before in this previous discussion about the history of Logo: History of Logo: https://escholarship.org/uc/item/1623m1p3 https://escholarship.org/uc/item/1623m1p3 HN Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23052300 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23052300 Comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23054174 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23054174 Here is the source code to LLogo in MACLISP, which I stashed from the MIT-AI ITS system. It's a fascinating historical document, 12,480 lines of beautiful practical lisp code, defining where the rubber meets the road, with drivers for hardware like pots, plotters, robotic turtles, TV turtles, graphical displays, XGP laser printers, music devices, and lots of other interesting code and comments. https://donhopkins.com/home/archive/lisp/llogo.lisp https://donhopkins.com/home/archive/lisp/llogo.lisp Lars Brinkhoff got some of this code to run in MacLisp on an emulator! (I don't know how much of the historical hardware the emulator supports yet, but he's probably worked on some of that too. ;) ) https://github.com/PDP-10/its/issues/620 https://github.com/PDP-10/its/issues/620 Thanks to Lars, here are two revisions of an AI Lab memo about LLOGO: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/ai/aim/AIM-307.pdf http://bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/ai/aim/AIM-307.pdf http://bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/ai/aim/AIM-307a.pdf http://bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/ai/aim/AIM-307a.pdf And a Logo manual and glossary of PDP-11 Logo: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/ai/aim/AIM-313.pdf http://bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/ai/aim/AIM-313.pdf http://bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/ai/aim/AIM-315.pdf http://bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/ai/aim/AIM-315.pdf http://bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/ai/aim/AIM-315a.pdf http://bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/ai/aim/AIM-315a.pdf https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23054236 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23054236 Lars Brinkhoff suggests that this thread comp.lang.logo with Brian Harvey and Leigh Klotz is required reading: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.logo/UqOvEkZsJEQ https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.logo/UqOvE... Just a couple highlights from a detailed history of Logo that Brian and Leigh and others posted: >From Brian Harvey: >Many, many people have been involved in the development of Logo. >Wally Feurzeig started the whole thing by organizing a group at Bolt, Beranek, and Newman, Inc., to study the educational effects of teaching kids a programming language. The first language they used, like most programming languages, was focused on numeric computation, and it was Wally's idea that kids would find it more natural to work in an area they knew better, namely natural language; therefore, he set up a team to design a language featuring words and sentences. Wally made up the name "Logo." >The team Wally put together at BBN included Seymour Papert and Dan Bobrow. The three of them are credited as the designers of the first version of the language; Dan wrote the first implementation. In a BBN report dated August, 1967, credit for additional work is given to Richard Grant, Cynthia Solomon, and Frank Frazier. >Seymour later started a Logo group at MIT, where Logo development continued. The MIT versions of Logo were substantially different from the BBN ones, both in the notations used and in the things the language could do. Most notably, turtle graphics was added at MIT. >Among the many people who contributed to the development of Logo at MIT, at the risk of leaving someone out, are Hal Abelson, Paul Goldenberg, Dan Watt, Gary Drescher, Steve Hain, Leigh Klotz, Andy diSessa, Brian Silverman... oh, lots of people. >I think that most of the early documents are out of print now, but whatever documentation there is of the early efforts will be in the form of technical reports from BBN and from MIT. You may have to visit Cambridge to find them! >From Leight Klotz: >In the mid 1970's, when the AI Lab Lisp Machine project was just getting underway, Marvin Minsky and Danny Hillis (later to found Terrapin, and still later, Thinking Machines) put together a project to build a Logo machine. It had two components: a PDP-11 processor (the 3500) and a separate vector-graphics display (the 2500). Guy Montpetit, a Canadian entrepeneur, funded development eventually, and a company called General Turtle was formed. General Turtle built and sold the 2500/3500 system. Henry Minsky, then about 12, worked on the design of the 2500, using the Stanford Draw program, one of the early electronics CAD systems. (The 2500 had this really great barrell shifter stolen from the Lisp machine design, but it was later found not to work, so it was never used.) [...] >[...] Like Brian, I've left out many people who worked on Logo over the years: Brian Fox and Flavio Rose worked for me at Terrapin on a contract basis briefly, as did vagabond programmer Devon McCullough (who used to dial in with a 300 baud modem he'd written in entirely software using the parallel game port, with an 80-column mixed-case display done with 3x5 pixel characters; when the modem detected the call waiting click on the line, it would make the Apple II speaker make the telephone ringing sound -- a feature which I just saw a US patent filed on, not by Devon.), and the frustrated Sinclar QX programmer, who I suspect doesn't want his name used. Of course, there were tons more people at the AI Lab in the pre-commercial days... >From Lars Brinkhoff >Hello, >I'm mostly researching PDP-10 software, especially MIT's Incompatible Timesharing System. >I have recently stumbled across some of the LOGO group work. I have a copy of the Dazzle Dart game that ran on their PDP-11/45. It uses the Tom Knight vector display controller, so it's not easy to run it. >Maybe it would be possible to get the original MIT PDP-11 LOGO running. >[...] It's running now. >[...] Now also BBN PDP-10 Logo, MIT CLOGO, MIT Lisp Logo, and hopefully soon MIT Apple II Logo (direct ancestor of Terrapin Apple II Logo). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23058440 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23058440 Terrapin Logo for the Apple ][ and C64 came with a 6502 assembler written in Logo by Leigh Klotz, that they used to write Logo primitives (for controlling the turtle, etc). It would be ambitious to make a self hosting 6502 Logo meta assembler, by porting the entire 6502 assembly language Logo source code to the 6502 Logo Assembler! Leigh, wasn't the assembler that you used for the original Apple ][ version of Logo written in MacLisp running on a PDP-10? The Apple II Source Code for the LOGO Language Found (adafruit.com) 379 points by mmastrac on Oct 4, 2018 | hide | past | web | favorite | 89 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18142287 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18142287 https://blog.adafruit.com/2018/10/04/the-apple-ii-source-code-for-the-logo-language-found/ https://blog.adafruit.com/2018/10/04/the-apple-ii-source-cod... Lars: The link in the article to the code from https://github.com/PDP-10/its https://github.com/PDP-10/its is broken. I found a few references to it in the repo. Did you have to take it down, or did you move it somewhere else? https://github.com/PDP-10/its/tree/master/src/aplogo https://github.com/PDP-10/its/tree/master/src/aplogo >Logo >"I too see the computer presence as a potent influence on the human mind. I am very much aware of the holding power of an interactive computer and of how taking the computer as a model can influence the way we think about ourselves. In fact the work on LOGO to which I have devoted much of the past years consists precisely of developing such forces in positive directions." >Seymour Papert >"Logo is the name for a philosophy of education and for a continually evolving family of computer languages that aid its realization." >Harold Abelson >"Historically, this idea that Logo is mainly turtle graphics is a mistake. Logo’s name comes from the Greek word for word, because Logo was first designed as a language in which to manipulate language: words and sentences." >Brian Harvey >Logo was initially created by Wally Feurzeig, Seymour Papert, Daniel G.Bobrow, Cynthia Solomon and Richard Grant in 1967 as part of a National Science Foundation sponsored research project conducted at Bolt, Beranek & Newman, Inc., in Cambridge, Massachusetts. In 1969 Dr. Seymour Papert started the Logo Group at the MIT Artificial Intelligence Lab. Throughout the 1970s the majority of Logo development was conducted at MIT in the Artificial Intelligence Lab and the Division for Study and Research in Education, using large research computer systems, such as ITS powered PDP-10. >Our goal is to make that early Logo systems available to a wider audience of enthusiasts for exploration, experimenting and, of course, hacking. [...] >MIT APLOGO >In accordance with Leigh L Klotz Jr., Hal Abelson directed the Logo for the Apple II project at MIT. >MIT APLOGO was developed by Stephen Hain, Patrick G. Sobalvarro and Leigh L Klotz Jr. It was developed and cross-compilled for the Apple-II-Plus Personal Microcomputer on PDP-10 at the MIT LOGO Group. It is direct predecessor for Terrapin Logo. We have a source code for assembling an improved version from 7/9/81 at its/src/aplogo
  • larsbrinkhoff 5y ago
    Your LLOGO copy was for an older version of Maclisp, but eventually we (Eric and I) managed to port it over to New IO. It works fine and displays on an emulated Knight TV. (Itself a tour de force in emulation: the TV PDP-11 code runs on an emulator sharing its Unibus with the PDP-10 emulator.) We also have an early PDP-11 Logo, an even earlier BBN PDP-10 Logo, and a later Apple II Logo (not the Terrapin version). I also wrote an emulator for the General Turtle 2500 computer slash terminal.
    • DonHopkins 5y ago
      Do you have the specs for the infamous military Terrapin Snapping Turtle proposed to the Department of Defense? https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1056602.1056608 https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1056602.1056608 https://donhopkins.com/home/TurtlesAndDefense.pdf https://donhopkins.com/home/TurtlesAndDefense.pdf >TURTLES AND DEFENSE >Introduction >At Terrapin, we feel that our two main products, the Terrapin Turtle ®, and the Terrapin Logo Language for the Apple II, bring together the fields of robotics and AI to provide hours of entertainment for the whole family. We are sure that an enlightened application of our products can uniquely impact the electronic battlefield of the future. [...] >Guidance >The Terrapin Turtle ®, like many missile systems in use today, is wire-guided. It has the wire-guided missile's robustness with respect to ECM, and, unlike beam-riding missiles, or most active-homing systems, it has no radar signature to invite enemy missiles to home in on it or its launch platform. However, the Turtle does not suffer from that bugaboo of wire-guided missiles, i.e., the lack of a fire-and-forget capability. >Often ground troops are reluctant to use wire-guided antitank weapons because of the need for line-of-sight contact with the target until interception is accomplished. The Turtle requires no such human guidance; once the computer controlling it has been programmed, the Turtle performs its mission without the need of human intervention. Ground troops are left free to scramble for cover. [...] >Because the Terrapin Turtle ® is computer-controlled, military data processing technicians can write arbitrarily baroque programs that will cause it to do pretty much unpredictable things. Even if an enemy had access to the programs that guided a Turtle Task Team ® , it is quite likely that they would find them impossible to understand, especially if they were written in ADA. In addition, with judicious use of the Turtle's touch sensors, one could, theoretically, program a large group of turtles to simulate Brownian motion. The enemy would hardly attempt to predict the paths of some 10,000 turtles bumping into each other more or less randomly on their way to performing their mission. Furthermore, we believe that the spectacle would have a demoralizing effect on enemy ground troops. [...] >Munitions >The Terrapin Turtle ® does not currently incorporate any munitions, but even civilian versions have a downward-defense capability. The Turtle can be programmed to attempt to run over enemy forces on recognizing them, and by raising and lowering its pen at about 10 cycles per second, puncture them to death. >Turtles can easily be programmed to push objects in a preferred direction. Given this capability, one can easily envision a Turtle discreetly nudging a hand grenade into an enemy camp, and then accelerating quickly away. With the development of ever smaller fission devices, it does not seem unlikely that the Turtle could be used for delivery of tactical nuclear weapons. [...]
• zephyrfalcon 5y ago
  To add to that, Brian Harvey's homepage has three books about Logo for free: https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~bh/#csls https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~bh/#csls
• LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
  6. NetLogo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetLogo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetLogo & https://ccl.northwestern.edu/netlogo/ https://ccl.northwestern.edu/netlogo/
• empressplay 5y ago
  also turtleSpaces, a modern web- and app-based 3D Logo https://turtlespaces.org https://turtlespaces.org
• rzzzt 5y ago
  At school, we used a Logo implementation that had a shape editor that you could jump into with a keyboard combination. You could edit 32×32(?) pixel images, and it came pre-populated with the default turtle, some animation phases of a stick figure, a house, heads, etc. IIRC, SHAPE <n> changed the turtle image to the given shape, and you could control 8-ish independent turtles. It ran on MS-DOS systems. Does anyone know which one it might be?
  • rzzzt 5y ago
    Found it, it was LCSI's LogoWriter.
• riedel 5y ago
  FMS Logo released version 8.2 yesterday https://sourceforge.net/projects/fmslogo/ https://sourceforge.net/projects/fmslogo/ Logo was also the programming language I used at school. Funnily they translated it to German and because the German translation for turtle (Schildkröte) spells too long they translated it to Igel (hedgehog). I remember the fun programming fractals using turtle graphics