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I feel that this is a discussion very must about to become mainstream in the Netherlands. Electric vehicles of all sorts and sizes are entering the once relaxed

I feel that this is a discussion very must about to become mainstream in the Netherlands. Electric vehicles of all sorts and sizes are entering the once relaxed and predictable bike lanes (which here are often not just lanes but complete separate roads with no car-roads around, ie. through a park or forest). It's not just e-bikes and their unexpected speed, everywhere now you can rent "e-choppers", with a wide steering bar and a relaxed attitude. However they are much faster and wider than normal bicycles and you can see the annoyance on the faces of people constantly overtaken by them. 25 KPH is really fast on a bike path, and then they are also silent so they pop out of nowhere. It's not a good combo. Many of these bike lanes are of limits to gasoline scooters ("Fietspad dus niet brommen") I'm guessing many of these things are going to forced onto the car-roads by law, like we did 20 years ago with scooters (max 45 kph, require helmet, they are partly forced on car-roads, here is an example where scooters leave the bike path to enter the road: [0]). [0]: https://goo.gl/maps/RxWxazWic2dduqU67 https://goo.gl/maps/RxWxazWic2dduqU67

Vinnl 5y ago
Yeah, in more and more places I think they're sending everything above 25 km/h to the road. At the same time, we see "bicycle streets" emerging more and more, which are just as wide as regular streets (and which can be used by cars), but where the bicycle is the primary vehicle. I think they mostly rose in popularity in response to congestion on regular bike paths, but I feel like they also help with the width and speed issues - although above 25km/h is still quite fast. As I get more used to them though, the ones with a limit of 25 feel less problematic to me.
- mrsuprawsm 5y ago
  I quite like the bicycle streets, for example in places where there isn't room for a proper segregated bike path, it still makes it clear that drivers are guests in the street (and explicitly calls this out on signs), which definitely makes me feel safer when cycling on such streets, versus regular roads.
  - petre 5y ago
    That doesn't quite for without speed bumps, not in Eastern Europe anyway. Interrupted speed bumps every 100 meters can be a solution for bikes, yet keep cars under 25 kph. Residential areas should effectively be bicycle streets.
    - Vinnl 5y ago
      I did not expect it to work either, but it does. I'm sure they've got a runbook documenting which traffic situations lend themselves to cycle streets (probably some combination of heavy flow of cycle traffic combined with nudges to car drivers to take a different road if possible), but the ones in my city all work great without speed bumps.
radu_floricica 5y ago
How's the regulation there? I'm often riding Limes which are capped at 25kph (about 15 mph, I think), and I keep comparing my speed with delivery people (Glovo, Uber and so on). Turns out the 25kph is a very well chosen point - it's about as fast as a bike rider on a delivery - maybe 1-2kph faster than the average, and a bit less than one who's really in a hurry. If your legislation allows for faster electric vehicles to share bike lanes, that's a big mistake IMO. Impact energy is proportional with the square of the speed, so crashing at 35 is already double the damage. 50kph is four times as bad, not to mention reaction times.
- avianlyric 5y ago
  Not the person your replying too, also don’t live in the Netherlands just fascinated with those bike infrastructure, but my understanding is that this is a historical quirk that came into existence when smaller mopeds where less common. In Amsterdam it used to be possible to ride mopeds under a certain power on bike paths, and these bikes could be identified by their number plates. Additionally micro cars, that in theory are meant to be accessibility devices for those with physical impairments are still allowed. But this is all slowly going away due to the exact issues you mention. The rise of cheap electric vehicles has meant that occasional fast vehicles sharing generous bike infrastructure has gone from acceptable to frustrating and soon to be dangerous. I think these rules are handled at the city/municipality level. So the rules are different city-to-city in the Netherlands, with some cities changing the rules quicker than others. But the writing is on the wall, cycle lanes in cities will soon be bikes, e-bikes, and more strictly regulated micro cars only in the near future.
- teekert 5y ago
  It's difficult to find examples because obviously Google Streetview cars don't enter pure bike paths, but here is one of these paths where you won't make friends with a somewhat broader and faster electric personal transport device [0]. A better example and one where I did ride around on an e-chopper, annoying people on bikes ;) [1] (not me in the image). These small path are pretty common in nature reserves here [2]. [0]: https://goo.gl/maps/yZXH4ggVQ6vXRcNy9 https://goo.gl/maps/yZXH4ggVQ6vXRcNy9 [1]: https://weekendtoerist.nl/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/mooiste-plekken-drents-friese-wold-fietsroute-13.jpg https://weekendtoerist.nl/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/mooiste... [2]: https://www.myfootprints.nl/nederland/fietsen-en-wandelen-in-het-drents-friese-wold/ https://www.myfootprints.nl/nederland/fietsen-en-wandelen-in...
beckman466 5y ago
> Electric vehicles of all sorts and sizes are entering the once relaxed and predictable bike lanes > I'm guessing many of these things are going to forced onto the car-roads by law, like we did 20 years ago with scooters Maybe we should repurpose some older 'provinciale' roads (which often run parallel to some of the major highways) for these new types of compact electric hybrid vehicle-bikes (transportation without an 'inside' or car-like cabin, that leaves the driver exposed), since expecting them to go on car-roads is inconsiderate. That way these new greener alternatives can take off, and their drivers are safe. We should never expect people with e-trailers (and similar) to compete for space with 35 ton lorries/semi trucks. I think this an infrastructural transition/move worth carefully tending to and designing for.
- teekert 5y ago
  Yeah I like that idea!
LeifCarrotson 5y ago
25 kph is about 15 mph, which is not particularly fast in a bike lane here in the US. It is a lane, not a path; basically a painted shoulder theoretically closed to vehicles. However, most cyclists seem to be riding for sport, few people ride at a sedate pace because you're on the bike to burn calories and improve your fitness, not to get somewhere in normal clothes without becoming sweaty. It feels too dangerous to be a couple feet from all our big SUVs and pickup trucks at 100 kph/55 mph unless you're also going an appreciable fraction of that speed.
- shafyy 5y ago
  Your city is doing bike lanes wrong :-)
  - scrose 5y ago
    I think you mean ‘Your country’. The US is notoriously bad at prioritizing people over ‘Level of Service’ for cars.
    - shafyy 5y ago
      I lived in SF for a while. While there's a lot of potential, it wasn't as bad as I would have thought.
      - browningstreet 5y ago
        I've lived in Amsterdam, Berlin and SF. SF is easily the worst, especially if you want to go biking with your family, even if that family includes an older teenager. Managing 3 people traversing a city shouldn't be as heinous as it is in SF. I've had fun in SF on a bike, bombing around solo -- but it never felt safe.
        shafyy 5y ago
        I live in Berlin and lived in Zurich and SF. I think SF is good for US standards. In Zurich you have fewer bike lanes than in SF, but the drivers are more aware of cyclists so I felt safer. Berlin is investing a lot into biking infrastructure and I feel like there are great bike lanes for almost everyone you want to go (at least in the neighborhoods I go around). Of course, Amsterdam is another ball game :-)
slaymaker1907 5y ago
I think 25 km/h is not all that fast in the US for a bike path. It is extremely easy to maintain that speed on even a cheap mountain bike much less a road bike. 25mph is very fast for a bicycle which some ebikes can reach and even exceed. People should definitely only be riding at that speed on roads.

Vinnl 5y ago

Yeah, in more and more places I think they're sending everything above 25 km/h to the road. At the same time, we see "bicycle streets" emerging more and more, which are just as wide as regular streets (and which can be used by cars), but where the bicycle is the primary vehicle. I think they mostly rose in popularity in response to congestion on regular bike paths, but I feel like they also help with the width and speed issues - although above 25km/h is still quite fast. As I get more used to them though, the ones with a limit of 25 feel less problematic to me.

mrsuprawsm 5y ago
I quite like the bicycle streets, for example in places where there isn't room for a proper segregated bike path, it still makes it clear that drivers are guests in the street (and explicitly calls this out on signs), which definitely makes me feel safer when cycling on such streets, versus regular roads.
- petre 5y ago
  That doesn't quite for without speed bumps, not in Eastern Europe anyway. Interrupted speed bumps every 100 meters can be a solution for bikes, yet keep cars under 25 kph. Residential areas should effectively be bicycle streets.
  - Vinnl 5y ago
    I did not expect it to work either, but it does. I'm sure they've got a runbook documenting which traffic situations lend themselves to cycle streets (probably some combination of heavy flow of cycle traffic combined with nudges to car drivers to take a different road if possible), but the ones in my city all work great without speed bumps.

radu_floricica 5y ago

How's the regulation there? I'm often riding Limes which are capped at 25kph (about 15 mph, I think), and I keep comparing my speed with delivery people (Glovo, Uber and so on). Turns out the 25kph is a very well chosen point - it's about as fast as a bike rider on a delivery - maybe 1-2kph faster than the average, and a bit less than one who's really in a hurry. If your legislation allows for faster electric vehicles to share bike lanes, that's a big mistake IMO. Impact energy is proportional with the square of the speed, so crashing at 35 is already double the damage. 50kph is four times as bad, not to mention reaction times.

avianlyric 5y ago
Not the person your replying too, also don’t live in the Netherlands just fascinated with those bike infrastructure, but my understanding is that this is a historical quirk that came into existence when smaller mopeds where less common. In Amsterdam it used to be possible to ride mopeds under a certain power on bike paths, and these bikes could be identified by their number plates. Additionally micro cars, that in theory are meant to be accessibility devices for those with physical impairments are still allowed. But this is all slowly going away due to the exact issues you mention. The rise of cheap electric vehicles has meant that occasional fast vehicles sharing generous bike infrastructure has gone from acceptable to frustrating and soon to be dangerous. I think these rules are handled at the city/municipality level. So the rules are different city-to-city in the Netherlands, with some cities changing the rules quicker than others. But the writing is on the wall, cycle lanes in cities will soon be bikes, e-bikes, and more strictly regulated micro cars only in the near future.
teekert 5y ago
It's difficult to find examples because obviously Google Streetview cars don't enter pure bike paths, but here is one of these paths where you won't make friends with a somewhat broader and faster electric personal transport device [0]. A better example and one where I did ride around on an e-chopper, annoying people on bikes ;) [1] (not me in the image). These small path are pretty common in nature reserves here [2]. [0]: https://goo.gl/maps/yZXH4ggVQ6vXRcNy9 https://goo.gl/maps/yZXH4ggVQ6vXRcNy9 [1]: https://weekendtoerist.nl/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/mooiste-plekken-drents-friese-wold-fietsroute-13.jpg https://weekendtoerist.nl/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/mooiste... [2]: https://www.myfootprints.nl/nederland/fietsen-en-wandelen-in-het-drents-friese-wold/ https://www.myfootprints.nl/nederland/fietsen-en-wandelen-in...

beckman466 5y ago

> Electric vehicles of all sorts and sizes are entering the once relaxed and predictable bike lanes > I'm guessing many of these things are going to forced onto the car-roads by law, like we did 20 years ago with scooters Maybe we should repurpose some older 'provinciale' roads (which often run parallel to some of the major highways) for these new types of compact electric hybrid vehicle-bikes (transportation without an 'inside' or car-like cabin, that leaves the driver exposed), since expecting them to go on car-roads is inconsiderate. That way these new greener alternatives can take off, and their drivers are safe. We should never expect people with e-trailers (and similar) to compete for space with 35 ton lorries/semi trucks. I think this an infrastructural transition/move worth carefully tending to and designing for.

teekert 5y ago
Yeah I like that idea!

LeifCarrotson 5y ago

25 kph is about 15 mph, which is not particularly fast in a bike lane here in the US. It is a lane, not a path; basically a painted shoulder theoretically closed to vehicles. However, most cyclists seem to be riding for sport, few people ride at a sedate pace because you're on the bike to burn calories and improve your fitness, not to get somewhere in normal clothes without becoming sweaty. It feels too dangerous to be a couple feet from all our big SUVs and pickup trucks at 100 kph/55 mph unless you're also going an appreciable fraction of that speed.

shafyy 5y ago
Your city is doing bike lanes wrong :-)
- scrose 5y ago
  I think you mean ‘Your country’. The US is notoriously bad at prioritizing people over ‘Level of Service’ for cars.
  - shafyy 5y ago
    I lived in SF for a while. While there's a lot of potential, it wasn't as bad as I would have thought.
    - browningstreet 5y ago
      I've lived in Amsterdam, Berlin and SF. SF is easily the worst, especially if you want to go biking with your family, even if that family includes an older teenager. Managing 3 people traversing a city shouldn't be as heinous as it is in SF. I've had fun in SF on a bike, bombing around solo -- but it never felt safe.
      - shafyy 5y ago
        I live in Berlin and lived in Zurich and SF. I think SF is good for US standards. In Zurich you have fewer bike lanes than in SF, but the drivers are more aware of cyclists so I felt safer. Berlin is investing a lot into biking infrastructure and I feel like there are great bike lanes for almost everyone you want to go (at least in the neighborhoods I go around). Of course, Amsterdam is another ball game :-)

slaymaker1907 5y ago

I think 25 km/h is not all that fast in the US for a bike path. It is extremely easy to maintain that speed on even a cheap mountain bike much less a road bike. 25mph is very fast for a bicycle which some ebikes can reach and even exceed. People should definitely only be riding at that speed on roads.