6 ms·

Doesn't that sound really similar to a certain story from certain religious sources, where events supposedly took place exactly in that region?... Edit: looks

Doesn't that sound really similar to a certain story from certain religious sources, where events supposedly took place exactly in that region?... Edit: looks like it does: > There is an ongoing debate as to whether Tall el-Hammam could be the biblical city of Sodom (Silvia2 and references therein), but this issue is beyond the scope of this investigation. Questions about the potential existence, age, and location of Sodom are not directly related to the fundamental question addressed in this investigation as to what processes produced high-temperature materials at Tall el-Hammam during the MBA. Nevertheless, we consider whether oral traditions about the destruction of this urban city by a cosmic object might be the source of the written version of Sodom in Genesis. We also consider whether the details recounted in Genesis are a reasonable match for the known details of a cosmic impact event.

_Microft 5y ago
The authors wrote that this is "possibly the earliest site with an oral tradition that was written down (Genesis)." This refers to the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
stargazer-3 5y ago
A more interesting bit of the paper: > It is worth speculating that a remarkable catastrophe, such as the destruction of Tall el-Hammam by a cosmic object, may have generated an oral tradition that, after being passed down through many generations, became the source of the written story of biblical Sodom in Genesis. The description in Genesis of the destruction of an urban center in the Dead Sea area is consistent with having been an eyewitness account of a cosmic airburst, e.g., (i) stones fell from the sky; (ii) fire came down from the sky; (iii) thick smoke rose from the fires; (iv) a major city was devastated; (v) city inhabitants were killed; and (vi) area crops were destroyed.
- smoyer 5y ago
  It doesn't however explain how Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt. The Genesis story also includes a rain of burning sulphur which could have been identified by smell by the ancients. Sulphur isn't mentioned in the article but I'd be interested in knowing whether it was found in quantities above the normal background level.
  - kuschku 5y ago
    Considering the impact threw up a massive amount of salt, which in turn coated the surrounding landscape and is still measurable today, the "pillar of salt" might just be a description for "so much salt fell from the sky that she was covered in it".
    - smoyer 5y ago
      That's an explanation I hadn't considered and the dead sea certainly shows how the area has collected salt.
      - p_l 5y ago
        The abandonment of the region for approx. 600 years is judged as caused by hypersalinity preventing growing of crops till natural leaching lowered salt content of the soil.
    - dane-pgp 5y ago
      Genesis chapter 19 verse 26 simply says "But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.", which maybe indicates someone being in such a state of shock that they just refused to move on, as the salt covered them. I'm not a psychologist, but I could imagine such an event causing what we would now call PTSD, and maybe triggering catatonia or similar symptoms.
  - Sharlin 5y ago
    I mean, it would be astonishing if all the details matched after hundreds to thousands of years of oral tradition. Embellishment and exaggeration were not unknown devices to Bronze Age storytellers, and neither was changing details to suit your agenda. And that’s besides the unintended “broken telephone” effect.
  - Cthulhu_ 5y ago
    It's oral history; I can imagine they added Lot and other characters to turn it into a more exciting story with a lesson to be learned in there. I mean the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is best known for showing what happens with sinners. Likewise that of Noah, likewise that of the tower of Babel.
- ordu 5y ago
  Somehow asteroid added to the descripition of the destruction of Sodom in Genesis makes Genesis much more real. Not just old wives stories, but -- wow, -- "kill infidels with an asteroid", it demands reverence.
  - detritus 5y ago
    As interesting for me are the myths of great floods across multiple cultures that can trace their history to sea level rises - particularly affecting the Persian Gulf, shifting populations ever northward to ancient Mesopotamia. I find oral tradition fascinating and wonder how modern technology (eg. books onwards) has affected it.
    - Bayart 5y ago
      Hasn't the sea level "lowered" in the Persian Gulf ? Silting made the sea significantly further away from the Sumerian heartland nowadays than it was back then. I've always thought the flood narrative archetype had to do with uncontrolled river floods, predating early state building and large irrigation projects. It's certainly that way in China.
    - dotancohen 5y ago
      One of the oldest writings still preserved contains the musings of an old man, on the proliferation of writing, complaining that the young will now no longer have to memorize their lessons because it can be now written down and read. If memory serves it is Egyptian.
drewwwwww 5y ago
the authors list as sponsoring institutions two quite small christian seminaries/universities - i don’t mean to impugn their fieldwork, but only mention it so as we may consider there to be some motivated reasoning in connecting it to events described in the Bible.
- Bayart 5y ago
  The Bible is a major force behind archaeology in the Levant. Not only for religious reasons, but also because the prospect of correlating material culture and written documents is always exciting.
- amacbride 5y ago
  To this point, the Wikipedia article on Veritas International University notes their doctrinal stance as follows: “Veritas International University has an evangelical doctrinal statement that emphasizes ‘three legs’ of biblical authority: inspiration, infallibility, and biblical inerrancy.” I admire the rigor of the archaeology and physical/chemical analysis of the site, but think it’s important to note the above when evaluating the conclusions.
  - robinei 5y ago
    Though if the evidence presented for this event is persuasive, then all they achieve by making the connection is to speculate on a natural cause for a biblical "miracle". I mean it can strengthen a view of the Bible as source of historical information, but not as the word of God. If this event happened, I would expect it to leave long lasting trace in oral tradition.
    - mcguire 5y ago
      One would have thought it would leave a written tradition---"The year a city in the Levant got blowed up" in one of the year lists or something. Tunguska was apparently visible for 500 miles (800km); for a similar event north of the Dead Sea, that would be nearly to the Euphrates valley, central Anatolia, and most of the Nile Valley.
mcguire 5y ago
"The project is under the aegis of the School of Archaeology, Veritas International University [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veritas_International_University https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veritas_International_Universi...], Santa Ana, CA, and the College of Archaeology, Trinity Southwest University [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_Southwest_University https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_Southwest_University], Albuquerque, NM, under the auspices of the Department of Antiquities of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan." Veritas International University (VIU) is an accredited non-profit Christian university located in Santa Ana, California. Founded in 2008, the university began as a seminary before transitioning to a university with the addition of undergraduate and post-graduate degrees in late 2017. Trinity Southwest University (TSU) is an unaccredited evangelical Christian institution of higher education with a campus in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Principally a theological school that encompasses both the Bible college and theological seminary concepts of Christian education, it offers on-campus and distance education programs and degrees in Biblical Studies, Theological Studies, Archaeology & Biblical History, Biblical Counseling, Biblical Representational Research, and University Studies. The researchers in question are specifically looking for Sodom (and believe they have found it at Tall el Hammam).

_Microft 5y ago

The authors wrote that this is "possibly the earliest site with an oral tradition that was written down (Genesis)." This refers to the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

stargazer-3 5y ago

A more interesting bit of the paper: > It is worth speculating that a remarkable catastrophe, such as the destruction of Tall el-Hammam by a cosmic object, may have generated an oral tradition that, after being passed down through many generations, became the source of the written story of biblical Sodom in Genesis. The description in Genesis of the destruction of an urban center in the Dead Sea area is consistent with having been an eyewitness account of a cosmic airburst, e.g., (i) stones fell from the sky; (ii) fire came down from the sky; (iii) thick smoke rose from the fires; (iv) a major city was devastated; (v) city inhabitants were killed; and (vi) area crops were destroyed.

smoyer 5y ago
It doesn't however explain how Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt. The Genesis story also includes a rain of burning sulphur which could have been identified by smell by the ancients. Sulphur isn't mentioned in the article but I'd be interested in knowing whether it was found in quantities above the normal background level.
- kuschku 5y ago
  Considering the impact threw up a massive amount of salt, which in turn coated the surrounding landscape and is still measurable today, the "pillar of salt" might just be a description for "so much salt fell from the sky that she was covered in it".
  - smoyer 5y ago
    That's an explanation I hadn't considered and the dead sea certainly shows how the area has collected salt.
    - p_l 5y ago
      The abandonment of the region for approx. 600 years is judged as caused by hypersalinity preventing growing of crops till natural leaching lowered salt content of the soil.
  - dane-pgp 5y ago
    Genesis chapter 19 verse 26 simply says "But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.", which maybe indicates someone being in such a state of shock that they just refused to move on, as the salt covered them. I'm not a psychologist, but I could imagine such an event causing what we would now call PTSD, and maybe triggering catatonia or similar symptoms.
- Sharlin 5y ago
  I mean, it would be astonishing if all the details matched after hundreds to thousands of years of oral tradition. Embellishment and exaggeration were not unknown devices to Bronze Age storytellers, and neither was changing details to suit your agenda. And that’s besides the unintended “broken telephone” effect.
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  It's oral history; I can imagine they added Lot and other characters to turn it into a more exciting story with a lesson to be learned in there. I mean the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is best known for showing what happens with sinners. Likewise that of Noah, likewise that of the tower of Babel.
ordu 5y ago
Somehow asteroid added to the descripition of the destruction of Sodom in Genesis makes Genesis much more real. Not just old wives stories, but -- wow, -- "kill infidels with an asteroid", it demands reverence.
- detritus 5y ago
  As interesting for me are the myths of great floods across multiple cultures that can trace their history to sea level rises - particularly affecting the Persian Gulf, shifting populations ever northward to ancient Mesopotamia. I find oral tradition fascinating and wonder how modern technology (eg. books onwards) has affected it.
  - Bayart 5y ago
    Hasn't the sea level "lowered" in the Persian Gulf ? Silting made the sea significantly further away from the Sumerian heartland nowadays than it was back then. I've always thought the flood narrative archetype had to do with uncontrolled river floods, predating early state building and large irrigation projects. It's certainly that way in China.
  - dotancohen 5y ago
    One of the oldest writings still preserved contains the musings of an old man, on the proliferation of writing, complaining that the young will now no longer have to memorize their lessons because it can be now written down and read. If memory serves it is Egyptian.

drewwwwww 5y ago

the authors list as sponsoring institutions two quite small christian seminaries/universities - i don’t mean to impugn their fieldwork, but only mention it so as we may consider there to be some motivated reasoning in connecting it to events described in the Bible.

Bayart 5y ago
The Bible is a major force behind archaeology in the Levant. Not only for religious reasons, but also because the prospect of correlating material culture and written documents is always exciting.
amacbride 5y ago
To this point, the Wikipedia article on Veritas International University notes their doctrinal stance as follows: “Veritas International University has an evangelical doctrinal statement that emphasizes ‘three legs’ of biblical authority: inspiration, infallibility, and biblical inerrancy.” I admire the rigor of the archaeology and physical/chemical analysis of the site, but think it’s important to note the above when evaluating the conclusions.
- robinei 5y ago
  Though if the evidence presented for this event is persuasive, then all they achieve by making the connection is to speculate on a natural cause for a biblical "miracle". I mean it can strengthen a view of the Bible as source of historical information, but not as the word of God. If this event happened, I would expect it to leave long lasting trace in oral tradition.
  - mcguire 5y ago
    One would have thought it would leave a written tradition---"The year a city in the Levant got blowed up" in one of the year lists or something. Tunguska was apparently visible for 500 miles (800km); for a similar event north of the Dead Sea, that would be nearly to the Euphrates valley, central Anatolia, and most of the Nile Valley.

mcguire 5y ago

"The project is under the aegis of the School of Archaeology, Veritas International University [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veritas_International_University https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veritas_International_Universi...], Santa Ana, CA, and the College of Archaeology, Trinity Southwest University [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_Southwest_University https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_Southwest_University], Albuquerque, NM, under the auspices of the Department of Antiquities of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan." Veritas International University (VIU) is an accredited non-profit Christian university located in Santa Ana, California. Founded in 2008, the university began as a seminary before transitioning to a university with the addition of undergraduate and post-graduate degrees in late 2017. Trinity Southwest University (TSU) is an unaccredited evangelical Christian institution of higher education with a campus in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Principally a theological school that encompasses both the Bible college and theological seminary concepts of Christian education, it offers on-campus and distance education programs and degrees in Biblical Studies, Theological Studies, Archaeology & Biblical History, Biblical Counseling, Biblical Representational Research, and University Studies. The researchers in question are specifically looking for Sodom (and believe they have found it at Tall el Hammam).