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When the folks making the laws are criminals, breaking the law is still criminal. By definition. Whether it's right or wrong is a different and more nuanced qu

by khafra 15y ago

When the folks making the laws are criminals, breaking the law is still criminal. By definition. Whether it's right or wrong is a different and more nuanced question; but it's not the question addressed by the parent. I sympathise with your perspective, but I dislike "debate drift."

IsaacSchlueter 15y ago
Every time someone says "By definition" as if it means something, a little vomit rises to the back of my throat.
- yid 15y ago
  On the contrary, "by definition" has a very clear meaning in mathematics and logic. On HN and other forums with logically-slanted people, it's used to reduce ambiguity in drifting debates like this one.
  - Kirchart123 15y ago
    Agreed, "definition" its an absolute .. By definition gravity pulls you down as an example.
danenania 15y ago
In that case, using the word 'criminal' as if it's at all relevant to the situation is 'debate drift'. It's a loaded word and its use as a label carries well known connotations. I'm not disputing the tautological definition, I'm disputing the implicatons of invoking it. Put another way, you don't often hear Gandhi or Martin Luther King referred to as 'criminals', even if by definition it's the truth. There's a reason for that, and there's a reason why I'd tend to be pretty skeptical of someone who chose such a label for those men in conversation, technically factual though it may be.
- khafra 15y ago
  That's not the way I read the original use of "criminal," but that's a legitimate argument to make. The thing to do would have been to say something like "I agree with you denotatively, but disagree with your connotations," and explain why. Not to fight debate drift with more debate drift.
johngalt 15y ago
The age old debate of chaotic good vs. lawful good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_%28Dungeons_%26_Drago...
VladRussian 15y ago
>When the folks making the laws are criminals, breaking the law is still criminal. By definition. some other definition: "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. "

by khafra 15y ago

IsaacSchlueter 15y ago

Every time someone says "By definition" as if it means something, a little vomit rises to the back of my throat.

yid 15y ago
On the contrary, "by definition" has a very clear meaning in mathematics and logic. On HN and other forums with logically-slanted people, it's used to reduce ambiguity in drifting debates like this one.
- Kirchart123 15y ago
  Agreed, "definition" its an absolute .. By definition gravity pulls you down as an example.

danenania 15y ago

In that case, using the word 'criminal' as if it's at all relevant to the situation is 'debate drift'. It's a loaded word and its use as a label carries well known connotations. I'm not disputing the tautological definition, I'm disputing the implicatons of invoking it. Put another way, you don't often hear Gandhi or Martin Luther King referred to as 'criminals', even if by definition it's the truth. There's a reason for that, and there's a reason why I'd tend to be pretty skeptical of someone who chose such a label for those men in conversation, technically factual though it may be.

khafra 15y ago
That's not the way I read the original use of "criminal," but that's a legitimate argument to make. The thing to do would have been to say something like "I agree with you denotatively, but disagree with your connotations," and explain why. Not to fight debate drift with more debate drift.

johngalt 15y ago

The age old debate of chaotic good vs. lawful good http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_%28Dungeons_%26_Drago...

VladRussian 15y ago

>When the folks making the laws are criminals, breaking the law is still criminal. By definition. some other definition: "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. "