4 ms·

can the driver just put a photo of himself in front of the camera and score total bonus for being always on attention. Or (using the Moscow street surveillance

by trhway 5y ago

can the driver just put a photo of himself in front of the camera and score total bonus for being always on attention. Or (using the Moscow street surveillance contractor recipe) if the system is smart to not be fooled by a photo - record one ideal day (or even just an hour) and put the smartphone with the video in front of the camera on repeated play. Of course the most interesting is to use counter-AI to generate video of right behavior without repetition and with matching location/street view in case if the Amazon/Netradyne AI is smart enough to have geolocation based street view integration.

ben_w 5y ago
I suspect the people who understand AI well enough to fool it also know they can get more money not being a driver.
- trhway 5y ago
  I think that deepfake tools will soon be available to everyday user just like filters in Instagram or basic video editing tools. And even if we just limit ourselves to tech users - some companies have long been logging coders' Eclipse (mostly not in the 1st rate countries of course), and I suspect these days that may get fed to AI. And some day it will make into US and West Europe too.
- apexalpha 5y ago
  You would be surprised how quickly people can learn how to fool something, without knowing exactly how it works. Uber drivers used to look up time slots for big planes arriving at the airport. They would then all go offline on the app to trigger "surge pricing" and then all benefit from it. No one knows exactly how the algorithm works, but they know how to fool it.
  - trhway 5y ago
    interesting aspect here is that otherwise honest people at some point of unjust pressure put on them start to allow themselves to cross into that gray zone, and without feeling shame it leads to that being done in the open inside those specific social groups affected and thus becomes the acceptable social norm there.
    - bigfudge 5y ago
      I think people are able to segment moral behaviours very effectively. Uber’S ride allocation system would be very far down the list of things I would feel bad about gaming.
    - oarsinsync 5y ago
      > interesting aspect here is that otherwise honest people at some point of unjust pressure put on them start to allow themselves to cross into that gray zone, and without feeling shame it leads to that being done in the open inside those specific social groups affected and thus becomes the acceptable social norm there. The thing to consider is that no actions are taking place in a vaccuum. The drivers gaming the system is not an isolated input that is occurring. Instead, there are a number of different inputs that are putting downwards pressure on the rates a driver gets to charge / how much money the driver actually takes home after costs, taxes, etc. While it's not incorrect (or even unjust) to describe the behaviour as being potentially 'gray' (although the use of colour is a different matter, I understand the sentiment being expressed), by only highlighting and focusing on the least powerful members in the system, it unconsciously paints a picture that draws focus away from the other inputs into the system that have resulted in this situation occurring in the first place.
  - ben_w 5y ago
    Yeah, that’s fair. Cargo cults got famous because they worked, despite the mocking way they are often reported.
- fortran77 5y ago
  What makes you think people who take a job driving are incapable of understanding things as well as you?
  - ben_w 5y ago
    As soon as someone has developed that understanding, they get a chance for a massive pay rise and better working conditions. While I acknowledge that some people will prefer to be a driver than to work in any of the places whose doors would open with this skill, I suspect this is a minority.
a012 5y ago
> can the driver just put a photo of himself in front of the camera and score total bonus for being always on attention. Or (using the Moscow street surveillance contractor recipe) if the system is smart to not be fooled by a photo - Only if you know what the AI cam sees, if it's like a blackbox to you then I doubt there's way that you could do to fool it.
- trhway 5y ago
  After partially obscuring the lenses by say an accidental drop of ketchup : "Your camera doesn't get correct image" "Why?! What is wrong?" "See for yourself"

by trhway 5y ago

ben_w 5y ago

I suspect the people who understand AI well enough to fool it also know they can get more money not being a driver.

trhway 5y ago
I think that deepfake tools will soon be available to everyday user just like filters in Instagram or basic video editing tools. And even if we just limit ourselves to tech users - some companies have long been logging coders' Eclipse (mostly not in the 1st rate countries of course), and I suspect these days that may get fed to AI. And some day it will make into US and West Europe too.
apexalpha 5y ago
You would be surprised how quickly people can learn how to fool something, without knowing exactly how it works. Uber drivers used to look up time slots for big planes arriving at the airport. They would then all go offline on the app to trigger "surge pricing" and then all benefit from it. No one knows exactly how the algorithm works, but they know how to fool it.
- trhway 5y ago
  interesting aspect here is that otherwise honest people at some point of unjust pressure put on them start to allow themselves to cross into that gray zone, and without feeling shame it leads to that being done in the open inside those specific social groups affected and thus becomes the acceptable social norm there.
  - bigfudge 5y ago
    I think people are able to segment moral behaviours very effectively. Uber’S ride allocation system would be very far down the list of things I would feel bad about gaming.
  - oarsinsync 5y ago
    > interesting aspect here is that otherwise honest people at some point of unjust pressure put on them start to allow themselves to cross into that gray zone, and without feeling shame it leads to that being done in the open inside those specific social groups affected and thus becomes the acceptable social norm there. The thing to consider is that no actions are taking place in a vaccuum. The drivers gaming the system is not an isolated input that is occurring. Instead, there are a number of different inputs that are putting downwards pressure on the rates a driver gets to charge / how much money the driver actually takes home after costs, taxes, etc. While it's not incorrect (or even unjust) to describe the behaviour as being potentially 'gray' (although the use of colour is a different matter, I understand the sentiment being expressed), by only highlighting and focusing on the least powerful members in the system, it unconsciously paints a picture that draws focus away from the other inputs into the system that have resulted in this situation occurring in the first place.
- ben_w 5y ago
  Yeah, that’s fair. Cargo cults got famous because they worked, despite the mocking way they are often reported.
fortran77 5y ago
What makes you think people who take a job driving are incapable of understanding things as well as you?
- ben_w 5y ago
  As soon as someone has developed that understanding, they get a chance for a massive pay rise and better working conditions. While I acknowledge that some people will prefer to be a driver than to work in any of the places whose doors would open with this skill, I suspect this is a minority.

a012 5y ago

> can the driver just put a photo of himself in front of the camera and score total bonus for being always on attention. Or (using the Moscow street surveillance contractor recipe) if the system is smart to not be fooled by a photo - Only if you know what the AI cam sees, if it's like a blackbox to you then I doubt there's way that you could do to fool it.

trhway 5y ago
After partially obscuring the lenses by say an accidental drop of ketchup : "Your camera doesn't get correct image" "Why?! What is wrong?" "See for yourself"