4 ms·

No vaccine is 100% effective and it is unethical to purposefully expose people to disease.

gfodor 5y ago
Huh? The ethics of therapies that expose people to pathogens is complicated - many examples where exposure can be ethical as long as patient is aware of the risks. Arguably all vaccines fall into this ethical framework, and other immunizations which involve exposure.
dcow 5y ago
Under what ethical framework?
- sasquatch69 5y ago
  10x to 100x less likely but still a distinct possibility you kill someone that would've lived if they weren't inoculated with a live virus. That's messed up by itself, but also cases like that would likely discourage the people on the fence about vaccination. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/08/10/us/covid-breakthrough-infections-vaccines.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/08/10/us/covid-brea... Minor live infections to build immunity is called variolation, it's a tactic that was used effectively historically against smallpox, but effectively got obsoleted by vaccination, which doesn't kill as many people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variolation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variolation
  - dcow 5y ago
    You linked data on breakthrough infections. Those are infections in people who have been vaccinated, some of which can still result in death. I don't believe there have been any reported deaths from the vaccine. There may be an alleged one, but the details are controversial. If you can link data suggesting that the vaccine is 10x to 100x less likely than covid to kill you but does still reliably kill you, I think we could entertain this line of rhetoric further. Despite that, let's concede the vaccine does kill people: I'm not sure that's unethical though if more people end up dead because the population didn't quickly achieve immunity and stop the spread of the virus. There are a lot of ethical frameworks out there and in the US we are actually a majority rule so as a society we should generally be protecting the interests of the majority of people except in cases where it leads to sever oppression or breach of civil liberties. We are okay with the draft (forced risk of death) during times of war yet somehow when the enemy is unfamiliar in the form of a virus we aren't?
oskarpearson 5y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_challenge_study https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_challenge_study
disambiguation 5y ago
yet this exactly what the pharma companies did during the clinical trials to confirm the vaccines' efficacy.
- IX-103 5y ago
  Wait, what? No. Just no. To confirm efficacy they gave the vaccine to half of a population likely to develop the disease naturally. Then they compared how many people for sick in each group. That's why testing took a year instead of 2 months, they have to wait for enrollees to get sick naturally. If we ignore ethics, I guess we could get more nuanced efficacy information out of a small sacrificial population. But that is just not done. Not even during a pandemic.
sarpeedo 5y ago
Before Chicken Pox vaccination was invented people would hold "Pox Parties" to infect and immunize their children at a young age when risk of severe infection was low. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pox_party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pox_party
somewhereoutth 5y ago
I'm unclear about these muddled responses to your post that simply states two incontrovertible truths.

Huh? The ethics of therapies that expose people to pathogens is complicated - many examples where exposure can be ethical as long as patient is aware of the risks. Arguably all vaccines fall into this ethical framework, and other immunizations which involve exposure.

dcow 5y ago

Under what ethical framework?

sasquatch69 5y ago
10x to 100x less likely but still a distinct possibility you kill someone that would've lived if they weren't inoculated with a live virus. That's messed up by itself, but also cases like that would likely discourage the people on the fence about vaccination. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/08/10/us/covid-breakthrough-infections-vaccines.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/08/10/us/covid-brea... Minor live infections to build immunity is called variolation, it's a tactic that was used effectively historically against smallpox, but effectively got obsoleted by vaccination, which doesn't kill as many people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variolation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variolation
- dcow 5y ago
  You linked data on breakthrough infections. Those are infections in people who have been vaccinated, some of which can still result in death. I don't believe there have been any reported deaths from the vaccine. There may be an alleged one, but the details are controversial. If you can link data suggesting that the vaccine is 10x to 100x less likely than covid to kill you but does still reliably kill you, I think we could entertain this line of rhetoric further. Despite that, let's concede the vaccine does kill people: I'm not sure that's unethical though if more people end up dead because the population didn't quickly achieve immunity and stop the spread of the virus. There are a lot of ethical frameworks out there and in the US we are actually a majority rule so as a society we should generally be protecting the interests of the majority of people except in cases where it leads to sever oppression or breach of civil liberties. We are okay with the draft (forced risk of death) during times of war yet somehow when the enemy is unfamiliar in the form of a virus we aren't?

oskarpearson 5y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_challenge_study https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_challenge_study

disambiguation 5y ago

yet this exactly what the pharma companies did during the clinical trials to confirm the vaccines' efficacy.

IX-103 5y ago
Wait, what? No. Just no. To confirm efficacy they gave the vaccine to half of a population likely to develop the disease naturally. Then they compared how many people for sick in each group. That's why testing took a year instead of 2 months, they have to wait for enrollees to get sick naturally. If we ignore ethics, I guess we could get more nuanced efficacy information out of a small sacrificial population. But that is just not done. Not even during a pandemic.

sarpeedo 5y ago

Before Chicken Pox vaccination was invented people would hold "Pox Parties" to infect and immunize their children at a young age when risk of severe infection was low. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pox_party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pox_party

somewhereoutth 5y ago

I'm unclear about these muddled responses to your post that simply states two incontrovertible truths.