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> Social security is more of a forced 401k. You will get back the money (in theory) Don't you get the value of the money back for all taxation, according to an

> Social security is more of a forced 401k. You will get back the money (in theory) Don't you get the value of the money back for all taxation, according to any theory that approves of taxation?

shados 5y ago
Not nearly as directly though. Social security is basically money in -> money back. A glorified forced 401k, or at worse a kind of retirement insurance. It's a bit more separated. When I pay taxes, I don't get a direct return for it, I get (in theory) a fully functioning society. Social security would be a little closer to a sewer and water bill from the city (which you have to pay if you're a owner, but you get a sewer in exchange. Whether you like it or not). It's still not a great analogy because Social security is more deferred. It's really its own thing. Still, it doesn't work quite like a tax either. I personally wouldn't mind if it did though. It's one of those things where we'll pay for it one way or another. If there's an entire generation of people who can't properly retire and pay medical bill, we will pay for them through taxes anyway. May as well do it preemptively and efficiently.
- medvezhenok 5y ago
  It's not quite a forced-401k though. Social security could technically be abolished (or payments diluted, etc) via an act of congress (even though politically unfeasible right now) - then you don't get anything out of your "investment". It's much harder to "abolish" a diversified 401k plan unless you abolish all private property (i.e. Russia 1917).
  - shados 5y ago
    Yup, like I mentioned, it's really its own beast, and all analogies will be flawed in some ways. But it also doesn't work quite like other taxes, at least in practice.
jdavis703 5y ago
> Don't you get the value of the money back for all taxation, according to any theory that approves of taxation? Roughly speaking, anyone paying more in taxes than the per capita spending is probably not receiving the full value of their taxes. We see this where most welfare (Pell Grants, SNAP benefits, Obamacare, etc) and tax credit schemes (CTC, electric car credit, etc) phase out as people pay more taxes.

> Social security is more of a forced 401k. You will get back the money (in theory) Don't you get the value of the money back for all taxation, according to any theory that approves of taxation?

shados 5y ago

Not nearly as directly though. Social security is basically money in -> money back. A glorified forced 401k, or at worse a kind of retirement insurance. It's a bit more separated. When I pay taxes, I don't get a direct return for it, I get (in theory) a fully functioning society. Social security would be a little closer to a sewer and water bill from the city (which you have to pay if you're a owner, but you get a sewer in exchange. Whether you like it or not). It's still not a great analogy because Social security is more deferred. It's really its own thing. Still, it doesn't work quite like a tax either. I personally wouldn't mind if it did though. It's one of those things where we'll pay for it one way or another. If there's an entire generation of people who can't properly retire and pay medical bill, we will pay for them through taxes anyway. May as well do it preemptively and efficiently.

medvezhenok 5y ago
It's not quite a forced-401k though. Social security could technically be abolished (or payments diluted, etc) via an act of congress (even though politically unfeasible right now) - then you don't get anything out of your "investment". It's much harder to "abolish" a diversified 401k plan unless you abolish all private property (i.e. Russia 1917).
- shados 5y ago
  Yup, like I mentioned, it's really its own beast, and all analogies will be flawed in some ways. But it also doesn't work quite like other taxes, at least in practice.

jdavis703 5y ago

> Don't you get the value of the money back for all taxation, according to any theory that approves of taxation? Roughly speaking, anyone paying more in taxes than the per capita spending is probably not receiving the full value of their taxes. We see this where most welfare (Pell Grants, SNAP benefits, Obamacare, etc) and tax credit schemes (CTC, electric car credit, etc) phase out as people pay more taxes.