4 ms·

Let me preface this with: George floyd was essentially subjected to an execution without trail and nothing about the officers use of force was justifiable. Tha

Let me preface this with: George floyd was essentially subjected to an execution without trail and nothing about the officers use of force was justifiable. That said I think it disgusting to pretend that George Floyd was subject to a "web of laws designed to incarcerate black people", unless that web of laws targeting only black people includes prosecuting things like armed robbery. If his priors had only included things like jaywalking or drug possession I might agree with you. "In 2007, Floyd faced charges for aggravated robbery with a deadly weapon; according to investigators, he had entered an apartment by impersonating a water department worker and barging in with five other men, then held a pistol to a woman's stomach." If anyone wants to talk about disproportionate prosecution thats fine. I think more armed robbers should be in jail to protect innocent victims, and if that means catching more white or asian ones I'm all for it. Sentencing disparities are disgraceful but I thought I remember reading that they largely disappeared if you adjusted for prior convictions and mitigating circumstances(armed robbery with an straw purchased gun vs. a bat for example). Also I think somewhat related were economic reasons(affording a better lawyer), and honestly though tackling poverty is probably a better way to prevent future criminals, we still need to do something about today's criminals and protect future victims.

qwertygnu 5y ago
This might be the worst take on George Floyd I've ever read.
burkaman 5y ago
> according to investigators Investigators also once said "After Floyd got out of his car, he physically resisted officers. Officers were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and noted he appeared to be suffering medical distress. Officers called for an ambulance. He was transported to Hennepin County Medical Center by ambulance where he died a short time later." I don't always trust what investigators say, especially ones from a department that once jailed Floyd for 15 days for "failure to identify to a police officer" (???), and later murdered him. Edit: Apologies, it was actually a different department that murdered him.
- kapp_in_life 5y ago
  "Floyd was arrested three months later during a traffic stop and a 7-year-old victim of the robbery identified him from a photo array" Maybe the 7 year old who identified him was coerced by detectives. Anything is possible. That doesn't mean we discount all evidence presented with the thought terminating cliche "ACAB".
  - jjeaff 5y ago
    I also would not trust eye witness identification in many cases. Especially from a seven year old.
  - burkaman 5y ago
    I'm not discounting any evidence. I accept that the department presented that pretty weak-sounding evidence, and it's possible they got the right guy. However, the actual woman he threatened did not identify him, the method of identification is no longer used by the department (nowadays a photo array has to be presented by officers who don't know any of the suspects, so they can't introduce any bias), there was no physical evidence at all, there is an incredibly long documented history of police lying in cases just like this one, there is an equally long history of defendants being pushed into plea deals despite their innocence, 7 year olds are not reliable even in the best of circumstances, and Floyd himself maintained his innocence before and after his jail time. Based on the totality of the evidence I'm aware of, I believe there's a significant chance Floyd was innocent of this charge. I'm very comfortable saying that even in an ideal future where racial harmony has been achieved and police misconduct is a distant memory, if placed on a jury I still would never convict someone on the sole evidence of a 7-year-old's photo array testimony 3 months after the crime occurred.
  - 8note 5y ago
    I for one think the officers have to prove that their word is trustworthy, and they have not. In absense of other evidence, I'll presume innocence, and that the officer is lying. That's what the thought terminated ACAB means there, a presumption of innocence.
anigbrowl 5y ago
In 2007, Floyd faced charges for aggravated robbery OK, and? That quote is from Wikipedia and I'm sure that you read on and saw the next few sentences documenting that he served 5 years in prison for that crime, and then worked with rehab mentoring organizations and was never again charged with a violent crime or property crime. He was briefly arrested in 2019 for possession of opiates due to his personal drug addiction. I think more armed robbers should be in jail to protect innocent victims But he went to prison, for 5 years. Armed robbery is bad for sure, but how long do you want to keep people in prison? Nobody was shot or otherwise injured. After he was released, there were no similar offenses. Why would you still want to treat him like a violent criminal 13 years later?
- kapp_in_life 5y ago
  >OK, and? I was responding to the disingenuous claims in the original post. >Nobody was shot or otherwise injured Being held at gunpoint might not cause physical injuries but its dismissive to pretend it causes no injuries. >After he was released, there were no similar offenses. Why would you still want to treat him like a violent criminal 13 years later? I wouldn't, don't attribute the strawman in your head to me. More relevant to the original post I responded to I also wouldn't pretend he was only subject to a "web of laws designed to incarcerate black people" after getting punished for committing a violent crime.
  - anigbrowl 5y ago
    You wanted to refute a claim about what happened in 2020 by bringing readers back to 2007, while omitting any mention of the prison term and rehabilitation but articulating the need to put violent criminals in prison. Then you say you were responding to disingenuity? Sorry, no sale.
mjevans 5y ago
Labels, particularly dismissive labels, cause harm. Someone who is known to have committed a crime in the past, is what 'criminal' should mean. However the word has decayed to implicitly meaning 'career criminal', which might also be an apt label. Contrast to the phrase 'reformed criminal'. The problem of __dismissive labels__ rather than specific labels being bad, hadn't been conveyed to me previously and this helps me see the rhetoric about avoiding other dismissive terms such as 'homeless' in a clearer light. Even the new PC terms often only get used in the same way; which does not solve the problem, nor communicate why the change in phrasing was necessary.
strbean 5y ago
The criminal justice system in the US demonstrably does not rehabilitate convicts. There is a clear causal link between being incarcerated for something like drug possession or petty theft and committing more serious / violent offenses in the future. Not to justify George Floyd's actions, but this is exactly the "web of laws designed to incarcerate black people".
autoliteInline 5y ago
regarding George Floyd's history as a pregnant women stomach stickin' bad man, dunno if that counts. As a practical matter, I'd say it's more along the lines of just how do you control a crazy acting person without hurting them. A certain number of them are going to die, there's no way around it. Most people would probably agree that a lot of traffic stops and arrests are for chickenshit offenses. Add to that the fact that police are wired a little like German Shepherds. You run, they chase.
- amrangaye 5y ago
  >> As a practical matter, I'd say it's more along the lines of just how do you control a crazy acting person without hurting them. A certain number of them are going to die, there's no way around it. That’s… quite a summary of a cop putting his knee on someone’s neck while people all around screamed at him that the man was suffering, and staying in that position until the man died. Floyd was already on the ground and had four armed policemen surrounding him - how was he a threat, or someone who couldn’t just be hauled up and cuffed / placed in a police car? Compare it for example to the almost-courteous way Dylan Roof - who committed a crime far worse than anything Floyd ever did - was treated by the police when they finally caught up to him. I’m sorry but you sound like a right wing TV host doing their best to paper over the truth / make it about anything else but the inherent racism of American policing. Perhaps if Floyd was an aberration your point might hold - but this is clearly a pattern, as we’ve seen over and over. The only way to solve the problem is by understanding its roots, not blasé statements reducing it to statistics and a “crazy acting man” who couldn’t be subdued without hurting him.
  - autoliteInline 5y ago
    Honestly, it's remarkable how often they hold (or held, now that it's unpopular) people down in just that way. There's a few other not-nice ways to disable someone. Usually they don't die. Designing a protocol is not such an easy thing. Talk to someone who has worked in a cell-extraction team, it's a pretty outrageous scene. 'inherent racism'? Sounds like someone who has a purely internet knowledge of policing. The world's a complicated place. Save your outrage to bore your friends.
KorematsuFredt 5y ago
> "web of laws designed to incarcerate black people", I disagree. There is indeed a web of laws and subsidies that makes black people to chose a career of crime. It starts with public schooling system. Black ghettos have some of the countries worst schools. These schools fail all the black kids in their early formative years. This blame is not on racist white conservatives but teachers union funded political left. Not only black kids fail to get a good education, their overall lack of abilities are glorified by political left in the name of multiculturism. Failure to speak good english, dress well, do basic math, reading and writing etc. is something portrayed as uniquely black things that somehow we should celebrate. A black kid who does well academically is called a coconut. The kid who is out of school can not find a job or unpaid work because of minimum wage laws enacted by political left. If you are white kid and 17 years old it is much easier to find a job. You have a social connections, other white people trust you and other small business owners are mostly white. If you are black kid of a single mom living in a ghetto getting that first job is incredibly hard. How do you survive then ? Your bad second hand car gets tickets which you can't pay. You get arrested for not paying them. Out of desperation you learn to peddle drugs and go to jail a few times. You record means you can never get even the lowest of low jobs at Costco or Walmart. The only choice you have now is to continue working in the underground economy which has worst of ethics and higher probability of getting jailed. Warren Buffet use to say that the modern cash register made an entire generation of Americans more honest. He had a point. Larger dishonesty starts with smaller thefts. But reverse is also true, if you are never exposed to honest work, it is hard for you to stay out of jail in this country. I do feel crime among black people is a systemic issue and not an issue of genetics and both political left and right are responsible for pushing them into this sad state. PS: My arguments are mostly based on Thomas Sowell's work around race. He has put in lot of efforts to show that while culture matters, the culture itself is not determined by genetics. Culture evolves based on incentives.

qwertygnu 5y ago

This might be the worst take on George Floyd I've ever read.

burkaman 5y ago

> according to investigators Investigators also once said "After Floyd got out of his car, he physically resisted officers. Officers were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and noted he appeared to be suffering medical distress. Officers called for an ambulance. He was transported to Hennepin County Medical Center by ambulance where he died a short time later." I don't always trust what investigators say, especially ones from a department that once jailed Floyd for 15 days for "failure to identify to a police officer" (???), and later murdered him. Edit: Apologies, it was actually a different department that murdered him.

kapp_in_life 5y ago
"Floyd was arrested three months later during a traffic stop and a 7-year-old victim of the robbery identified him from a photo array" Maybe the 7 year old who identified him was coerced by detectives. Anything is possible. That doesn't mean we discount all evidence presented with the thought terminating cliche "ACAB".
- jjeaff 5y ago
  I also would not trust eye witness identification in many cases. Especially from a seven year old.
- burkaman 5y ago
  I'm not discounting any evidence. I accept that the department presented that pretty weak-sounding evidence, and it's possible they got the right guy. However, the actual woman he threatened did not identify him, the method of identification is no longer used by the department (nowadays a photo array has to be presented by officers who don't know any of the suspects, so they can't introduce any bias), there was no physical evidence at all, there is an incredibly long documented history of police lying in cases just like this one, there is an equally long history of defendants being pushed into plea deals despite their innocence, 7 year olds are not reliable even in the best of circumstances, and Floyd himself maintained his innocence before and after his jail time. Based on the totality of the evidence I'm aware of, I believe there's a significant chance Floyd was innocent of this charge. I'm very comfortable saying that even in an ideal future where racial harmony has been achieved and police misconduct is a distant memory, if placed on a jury I still would never convict someone on the sole evidence of a 7-year-old's photo array testimony 3 months after the crime occurred.
- 8note 5y ago
  I for one think the officers have to prove that their word is trustworthy, and they have not. In absense of other evidence, I'll presume innocence, and that the officer is lying. That's what the thought terminated ACAB means there, a presumption of innocence.

anigbrowl 5y ago

In 2007, Floyd faced charges for aggravated robbery OK, and? That quote is from Wikipedia and I'm sure that you read on and saw the next few sentences documenting that he served 5 years in prison for that crime, and then worked with rehab mentoring organizations and was never again charged with a violent crime or property crime. He was briefly arrested in 2019 for possession of opiates due to his personal drug addiction. I think more armed robbers should be in jail to protect innocent victims But he went to prison, for 5 years. Armed robbery is bad for sure, but how long do you want to keep people in prison? Nobody was shot or otherwise injured. After he was released, there were no similar offenses. Why would you still want to treat him like a violent criminal 13 years later?

kapp_in_life 5y ago
>OK, and? I was responding to the disingenuous claims in the original post. >Nobody was shot or otherwise injured Being held at gunpoint might not cause physical injuries but its dismissive to pretend it causes no injuries. >After he was released, there were no similar offenses. Why would you still want to treat him like a violent criminal 13 years later? I wouldn't, don't attribute the strawman in your head to me. More relevant to the original post I responded to I also wouldn't pretend he was only subject to a "web of laws designed to incarcerate black people" after getting punished for committing a violent crime.
- anigbrowl 5y ago
  You wanted to refute a claim about what happened in 2020 by bringing readers back to 2007, while omitting any mention of the prison term and rehabilitation but articulating the need to put violent criminals in prison. Then you say you were responding to disingenuity? Sorry, no sale.

mjevans 5y ago

Labels, particularly dismissive labels, cause harm. Someone who is known to have committed a crime in the past, is what 'criminal' should mean. However the word has decayed to implicitly meaning 'career criminal', which might also be an apt label. Contrast to the phrase 'reformed criminal'. The problem of __dismissive labels__ rather than specific labels being bad, hadn't been conveyed to me previously and this helps me see the rhetoric about avoiding other dismissive terms such as 'homeless' in a clearer light. Even the new PC terms often only get used in the same way; which does not solve the problem, nor communicate why the change in phrasing was necessary.

strbean 5y ago

The criminal justice system in the US demonstrably does not rehabilitate convicts. There is a clear causal link between being incarcerated for something like drug possession or petty theft and committing more serious / violent offenses in the future. Not to justify George Floyd's actions, but this is exactly the "web of laws designed to incarcerate black people".

autoliteInline 5y ago

regarding George Floyd's history as a pregnant women stomach stickin' bad man, dunno if that counts. As a practical matter, I'd say it's more along the lines of just how do you control a crazy acting person without hurting them. A certain number of them are going to die, there's no way around it. Most people would probably agree that a lot of traffic stops and arrests are for chickenshit offenses. Add to that the fact that police are wired a little like German Shepherds. You run, they chase.

amrangaye 5y ago
>> As a practical matter, I'd say it's more along the lines of just how do you control a crazy acting person without hurting them. A certain number of them are going to die, there's no way around it. That’s… quite a summary of a cop putting his knee on someone’s neck while people all around screamed at him that the man was suffering, and staying in that position until the man died. Floyd was already on the ground and had four armed policemen surrounding him - how was he a threat, or someone who couldn’t just be hauled up and cuffed / placed in a police car? Compare it for example to the almost-courteous way Dylan Roof - who committed a crime far worse than anything Floyd ever did - was treated by the police when they finally caught up to him. I’m sorry but you sound like a right wing TV host doing their best to paper over the truth / make it about anything else but the inherent racism of American policing. Perhaps if Floyd was an aberration your point might hold - but this is clearly a pattern, as we’ve seen over and over. The only way to solve the problem is by understanding its roots, not blasé statements reducing it to statistics and a “crazy acting man” who couldn’t be subdued without hurting him.
- autoliteInline 5y ago
  Honestly, it's remarkable how often they hold (or held, now that it's unpopular) people down in just that way. There's a few other not-nice ways to disable someone. Usually they don't die. Designing a protocol is not such an easy thing. Talk to someone who has worked in a cell-extraction team, it's a pretty outrageous scene. 'inherent racism'? Sounds like someone who has a purely internet knowledge of policing. The world's a complicated place. Save your outrage to bore your friends.

KorematsuFredt 5y ago

> "web of laws designed to incarcerate black people", I disagree. There is indeed a web of laws and subsidies that makes black people to chose a career of crime. It starts with public schooling system. Black ghettos have some of the countries worst schools. These schools fail all the black kids in their early formative years. This blame is not on racist white conservatives but teachers union funded political left. Not only black kids fail to get a good education, their overall lack of abilities are glorified by political left in the name of multiculturism. Failure to speak good english, dress well, do basic math, reading and writing etc. is something portrayed as uniquely black things that somehow we should celebrate. A black kid who does well academically is called a coconut. The kid who is out of school can not find a job or unpaid work because of minimum wage laws enacted by political left. If you are white kid and 17 years old it is much easier to find a job. You have a social connections, other white people trust you and other small business owners are mostly white. If you are black kid of a single mom living in a ghetto getting that first job is incredibly hard. How do you survive then ? Your bad second hand car gets tickets which you can't pay. You get arrested for not paying them. Out of desperation you learn to peddle drugs and go to jail a few times. You record means you can never get even the lowest of low jobs at Costco or Walmart. The only choice you have now is to continue working in the underground economy which has worst of ethics and higher probability of getting jailed. Warren Buffet use to say that the modern cash register made an entire generation of Americans more honest. He had a point. Larger dishonesty starts with smaller thefts. But reverse is also true, if you are never exposed to honest work, it is hard for you to stay out of jail in this country. I do feel crime among black people is a systemic issue and not an issue of genetics and both political left and right are responsible for pushing them into this sad state. PS: My arguments are mostly based on Thomas Sowell's work around race. He has put in lot of efforts to show that while culture matters, the culture itself is not determined by genetics. Culture evolves based on incentives.