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> It means the only reason you have a computer today is because the Islamic civilization passed the torch of knowledge to the West. Overstatement of the day.

nanis 5y ago
Maybe, but not too far off. Without the Ottoman Empire standing between Europe and trade with Asia, there wasn't going to be much of a motivation for exploring new trade roots. In fact, had the Ottomans just built proper toll roads, they may have held back the Reformation _and_ Renaissance for a 100 or so years. So, even if the preservation of mathematical and scientific knowledge during the dark ages were not a factor, the world would have ended up a rather different place. I know in European and American histories the existence of the Ottoman Empire and it's impact is not considered when evaluating the external forces that were nudging societies one way or another, but that does not mean there was just a void in the Eastern Mediterranean.
- 29athrowaway 5y ago
  Ottomans came much later. I am talking about the Islamic golden age. The Islamic world introduced paper to Europe and the book translations that served as the basis for the Reinassance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_translations_of_the_12th_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_translations_of_the_12th...
  - testrun 5y ago
    A bit more complicated than that: >> It wasn’t until the 11th century that paper arrived in Europe, with the Arab conquest of Sicily and Spain. However, paper was quickly considered an inferior-quality material compared to parchment, so much so that, in 1221, Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II prohibited its use for public documents. Rice starch, in fact, was an attractive food source for insects, which meant sheets of paper did not last long. The history of paper owes much to the paper makers of Fabriano, a small town in the Marche region of Italy, who started producing paper using linen and hemp in the 12th century. << https://www.afandpa.org/news/2021/history-paper https://www.afandpa.org/news/2021/history-paper
    - 29athrowaway 5y ago
      True but you cannot have a literate populace with parchments alone. The introduction of paper was necessary.
  - nanis 5y ago
    It is not an either/or: First, there was knowledge preservation. But, without the incentive to apply that knowledge to solve problems created by the fact that major European powers could not freely travel East without circumnavigating Africa, a lot of that knowledge would have remained in the books.
- bobthechef 5y ago
  > In fact, had the Ottomans just built proper toll roads, they may have held back the Reformation _and_ Renaissance for a 100 or so years. Now sure I follow. The Reformation in my view was not an inevitable advancement but an unnecessary disastrous event (involving a good deal of looting by protestantizing princes lusting after Church property) that plunged Europe into disastrous religious wars. Why would toll roads have slowed the arrival of this revolt against the Church? The Renaissance, pace the tidy myths we're taught in schools, was not some clean break from the Middle Ages or even a revolt, but a transition that was heavily indebted to the Middle Ages (actually, in terms of philosophy, it was kind of a mediocre period of history, save for perhaps some exceptions). Are you claiming that exploration was essential to the Renaissance? I'm not sure I buy that. > I know in European and American histories the existence of the Ottoman Empire and it's impact is not considered when evaluating the external forces that were nudging societies one way or another, I wouldn't generalize. Had the Ottomans conquered Vienna, it is argued that this breach through the Alps would have allowed the Ottomans to conquer the rest of Europe. Or at least tried to. That much is taught in some European countries.
  - nanis 5y ago
    If trade through Ottoman rules lands and seas had just been a matter of "pay the fee and get through", a lot of the pressures that defined the boundaries of European life would not have been there. Now, the fact that the Ottoman Empire could not capitalize on its quick successes is a symptom of the limits of how far one can go with feudal+warlord structures. Do bear in mind that the "empire" was still a going concern for 400 years after that. Had the Portuguese not had an incentive to circumnavigate Africa and had Columbus not had an incentive to try to get to India by traveling West, would the settlement of the Americas have happened at the pace it did?

nanis 5y ago

Maybe, but not too far off. Without the Ottoman Empire standing between Europe and trade with Asia, there wasn't going to be much of a motivation for exploring new trade roots. In fact, had the Ottomans just built proper toll roads, they may have held back the Reformation _and_ Renaissance for a 100 or so years. So, even if the preservation of mathematical and scientific knowledge during the dark ages were not a factor, the world would have ended up a rather different place. I know in European and American histories the existence of the Ottoman Empire and it's impact is not considered when evaluating the external forces that were nudging societies one way or another, but that does not mean there was just a void in the Eastern Mediterranean.

29athrowaway 5y ago
Ottomans came much later. I am talking about the Islamic golden age. The Islamic world introduced paper to Europe and the book translations that served as the basis for the Reinassance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_translations_of_the_12th_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_translations_of_the_12th...
- testrun 5y ago
  A bit more complicated than that: >> It wasn’t until the 11th century that paper arrived in Europe, with the Arab conquest of Sicily and Spain. However, paper was quickly considered an inferior-quality material compared to parchment, so much so that, in 1221, Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II prohibited its use for public documents. Rice starch, in fact, was an attractive food source for insects, which meant sheets of paper did not last long. The history of paper owes much to the paper makers of Fabriano, a small town in the Marche region of Italy, who started producing paper using linen and hemp in the 12th century. << https://www.afandpa.org/news/2021/history-paper https://www.afandpa.org/news/2021/history-paper
  - 29athrowaway 5y ago
    True but you cannot have a literate populace with parchments alone. The introduction of paper was necessary.
- nanis 5y ago
  It is not an either/or: First, there was knowledge preservation. But, without the incentive to apply that knowledge to solve problems created by the fact that major European powers could not freely travel East without circumnavigating Africa, a lot of that knowledge would have remained in the books.
bobthechef 5y ago
> In fact, had the Ottomans just built proper toll roads, they may have held back the Reformation _and_ Renaissance for a 100 or so years. Now sure I follow. The Reformation in my view was not an inevitable advancement but an unnecessary disastrous event (involving a good deal of looting by protestantizing princes lusting after Church property) that plunged Europe into disastrous religious wars. Why would toll roads have slowed the arrival of this revolt against the Church? The Renaissance, pace the tidy myths we're taught in schools, was not some clean break from the Middle Ages or even a revolt, but a transition that was heavily indebted to the Middle Ages (actually, in terms of philosophy, it was kind of a mediocre period of history, save for perhaps some exceptions). Are you claiming that exploration was essential to the Renaissance? I'm not sure I buy that. > I know in European and American histories the existence of the Ottoman Empire and it's impact is not considered when evaluating the external forces that were nudging societies one way or another, I wouldn't generalize. Had the Ottomans conquered Vienna, it is argued that this breach through the Alps would have allowed the Ottomans to conquer the rest of Europe. Or at least tried to. That much is taught in some European countries.
- nanis 5y ago
  If trade through Ottoman rules lands and seas had just been a matter of "pay the fee and get through", a lot of the pressures that defined the boundaries of European life would not have been there. Now, the fact that the Ottoman Empire could not capitalize on its quick successes is a symptom of the limits of how far one can go with feudal+warlord structures. Do bear in mind that the "empire" was still a going concern for 400 years after that. Had the Portuguese not had an incentive to circumnavigate Africa and had Columbus not had an incentive to try to get to India by traveling West, would the settlement of the Americas have happened at the pace it did?