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A lot of this "we don't care about criminals" attitude is cover for many Americans' feelings around race. Despite being only 12% of the American population, the

A lot of this "we don't care about criminals" attitude is cover for many Americans' feelings around race. Despite being only 12% of the American population, there are more black people in prison than whites (though this ratio is improving). Incarcerating black people has a long history going back to the post-Civil War environment when some states created a web of laws designed to incarcerate black people, because they were no longer allowed to own them as slave property. So when you hear people say "well, Floyd committed a crime previously," it's the long shadow of the past of (1) criminalizing them and then (2) dehumanizing them, in order to treat them as low value chattel - justifying killings or other mistreatment.

theranosifty 5y ago
Despite being 12% of the population they commit 50% of the murders, so why would you expect that there would be an equal percentage of black and white people in prison?
kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
There's also a lot of cultural propaganda that promotes the idea that the justice system is fair and unbiased. People instilled to think of themselves as the collective embodiment of perfection can't accept anything less than that. Hence if you've entered the meat grinder of the system you must have done something to deserve it because the system is designed to protect our Freedom™.
- BobbyJo 5y ago
  There has to be though, no? If the popular perception of how order is kept is that it is a random draw of minorities from a hat then it would no longer serve the purpose of being a disincentive to do crime. You can probably draw a very clear line between 'perception of fairness in the criminal justice system's and 'likelyhood to commit crime'.
- autoliteInline 5y ago
  >cultural propaganda that promotes the idea that the justice system is fair and unbiased. I'll take what you might think of as a third track. It's not so much that it's biased, but that it's arbitrary. Especially at the Federal level, the disparity in sentencing is remarkable..and it isn't just the difference in lawyer quality depending on wealth.
kapp_in_life 5y ago
Let me preface this with: George floyd was essentially subjected to an execution without trail and nothing about the officers use of force was justifiable. That said I think it disgusting to pretend that George Floyd was subject to a "web of laws designed to incarcerate black people", unless that web of laws targeting only black people includes prosecuting things like armed robbery. If his priors had only included things like jaywalking or drug possession I might agree with you. "In 2007, Floyd faced charges for aggravated robbery with a deadly weapon; according to investigators, he had entered an apartment by impersonating a water department worker and barging in with five other men, then held a pistol to a woman's stomach." If anyone wants to talk about disproportionate prosecution thats fine. I think more armed robbers should be in jail to protect innocent victims, and if that means catching more white or asian ones I'm all for it. Sentencing disparities are disgraceful but I thought I remember reading that they largely disappeared if you adjusted for prior convictions and mitigating circumstances(armed robbery with an straw purchased gun vs. a bat for example). Also I think somewhat related were economic reasons(affording a better lawyer), and honestly though tackling poverty is probably a better way to prevent future criminals, we still need to do something about today's criminals and protect future victims.
- qwertygnu 5y ago
  This might be the worst take on George Floyd I've ever read.
- burkaman 5y ago
  > according to investigators Investigators also once said "After Floyd got out of his car, he physically resisted officers. Officers were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and noted he appeared to be suffering medical distress. Officers called for an ambulance. He was transported to Hennepin County Medical Center by ambulance where he died a short time later." I don't always trust what investigators say, especially ones from a department that once jailed Floyd for 15 days for "failure to identify to a police officer" (???), and later murdered him. Edit: Apologies, it was actually a different department that murdered him.
  - 5y ago
exolymph 5y ago
Disproportionate incarceration is downstream* of disproportionate violence. Murder stats, which are relatively reliable since dead bodies are hard to disappear without careful planning and effort, demonstrate this. Why there's disproportionate violence in black communities need not involve genetics. Don't most people agree that black Americans got the short end of the stick historically? The ramifications include dynamics like shitty ghetto economies that make crime look like an attractive option. *I do think there's plenty of racism, institutional and otherwise, embedded in the "justice" system itself. Sentencing disparities are a travesty. But it's more complex than you implied.
- t-writescode 5y ago
  This statement may miss or minimize the argument for / against participation in a gang, especially without the presence of a paternal figure in a person's life, especially a young male's life ... who then becomes a father ... who then is removed from life due to decisions in circumstances ... whose child then grows up without a paternal figure, who then finds solace in a gang... who then... See the cycle? --- And then there's the argument for why gangs exist in the first place, or other small, localized militias providing protection and a place of belonging. "Just don't commit crimes, 4head" misses... a lot.
Postamaneus 5y ago
"Despite being only 12% of the American population, there are more black people in prison than whites." There are also more men in prison than women. Does it necessarily follow that men are oppressed?
PheloniBalcony 5y ago
"there are more black people in prison than whites" There are more men in prison than women

theranosifty 5y ago

Despite being 12% of the population they commit 50% of the murders, so why would you expect that there would be an equal percentage of black and white people in prison?

kevin_thibedeau 5y ago

There's also a lot of cultural propaganda that promotes the idea that the justice system is fair and unbiased. People instilled to think of themselves as the collective embodiment of perfection can't accept anything less than that. Hence if you've entered the meat grinder of the system you must have done something to deserve it because the system is designed to protect our Freedom™.

BobbyJo 5y ago
There has to be though, no? If the popular perception of how order is kept is that it is a random draw of minorities from a hat then it would no longer serve the purpose of being a disincentive to do crime. You can probably draw a very clear line between 'perception of fairness in the criminal justice system's and 'likelyhood to commit crime'.
autoliteInline 5y ago
>cultural propaganda that promotes the idea that the justice system is fair and unbiased. I'll take what you might think of as a third track. It's not so much that it's biased, but that it's arbitrary. Especially at the Federal level, the disparity in sentencing is remarkable..and it isn't just the difference in lawyer quality depending on wealth.

kapp_in_life 5y ago

Let me preface this with: George floyd was essentially subjected to an execution without trail and nothing about the officers use of force was justifiable. That said I think it disgusting to pretend that George Floyd was subject to a "web of laws designed to incarcerate black people", unless that web of laws targeting only black people includes prosecuting things like armed robbery. If his priors had only included things like jaywalking or drug possession I might agree with you. "In 2007, Floyd faced charges for aggravated robbery with a deadly weapon; according to investigators, he had entered an apartment by impersonating a water department worker and barging in with five other men, then held a pistol to a woman's stomach." If anyone wants to talk about disproportionate prosecution thats fine. I think more armed robbers should be in jail to protect innocent victims, and if that means catching more white or asian ones I'm all for it. Sentencing disparities are disgraceful but I thought I remember reading that they largely disappeared if you adjusted for prior convictions and mitigating circumstances(armed robbery with an straw purchased gun vs. a bat for example). Also I think somewhat related were economic reasons(affording a better lawyer), and honestly though tackling poverty is probably a better way to prevent future criminals, we still need to do something about today's criminals and protect future victims.

qwertygnu 5y ago
This might be the worst take on George Floyd I've ever read.
burkaman 5y ago
> according to investigators Investigators also once said "After Floyd got out of his car, he physically resisted officers. Officers were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and noted he appeared to be suffering medical distress. Officers called for an ambulance. He was transported to Hennepin County Medical Center by ambulance where he died a short time later." I don't always trust what investigators say, especially ones from a department that once jailed Floyd for 15 days for "failure to identify to a police officer" (???), and later murdered him. Edit: Apologies, it was actually a different department that murdered him.
- 5y ago

exolymph 5y ago

Disproportionate incarceration is downstream* of disproportionate violence. Murder stats, which are relatively reliable since dead bodies are hard to disappear without careful planning and effort, demonstrate this. Why there's disproportionate violence in black communities need not involve genetics. Don't most people agree that black Americans got the short end of the stick historically? The ramifications include dynamics like shitty ghetto economies that make crime look like an attractive option. *I do think there's plenty of racism, institutional and otherwise, embedded in the "justice" system itself. Sentencing disparities are a travesty. But it's more complex than you implied.

t-writescode 5y ago
This statement may miss or minimize the argument for / against participation in a gang, especially without the presence of a paternal figure in a person's life, especially a young male's life ... who then becomes a father ... who then is removed from life due to decisions in circumstances ... whose child then grows up without a paternal figure, who then finds solace in a gang... who then... See the cycle? --- And then there's the argument for why gangs exist in the first place, or other small, localized militias providing protection and a place of belonging. "Just don't commit crimes, 4head" misses... a lot.

Postamaneus 5y ago

"Despite being only 12% of the American population, there are more black people in prison than whites." There are also more men in prison than women. Does it necessarily follow that men are oppressed?

PheloniBalcony 5y ago

"there are more black people in prison than whites" There are more men in prison than women