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That's not really true historically. There's the whole Wild West ethos that still makes its way into pop culture (Star Wars, Breaking Bad, Clint Eastwood, Toy

That's not really true historically. There's the whole Wild West ethos that still makes its way into pop culture (Star Wars, Breaking Bad, Clint Eastwood, Toy Story 2, Back to the Future Part 2, etc), which glorifies outlaw life and people making it through their wits rather than the support of authorities. There are cities like San Francisco and Las Vegas, basically built on criminals building a local civilization. Prison movies like Shawshank Redemption, the Green Mile, and One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest have us rooting for the inmates. We keep electing Kennedy clan members, even though the family fortune is built on Scottish distilleries and securities manipulation. American history includes bomb-throwing anarchists, 3 revolutions, massacres by private security forces, hippie communes, the KKK, police forces bombing their own citizens, and plenty of extrajudicial lynchings. I think that the time period where this is true is the post-WW2 prosperity. There was a large premium on order and social stability here, along with creating institutions that kept (white, suburban, middle-class, male) Americans safe and gave them a stable upwards trajectory. Much of the support for law & order comes out of the demographic that grew up in this time period, with subsequent generations being much more skeptical of law enforcement and sympathetic to criminals. You don't see 20-somethings flying thin-blue-line flags, but you do see them calling to defund the police.

ksdale 5y ago
I think as far as pop culture glorifying it, there's an element of people not really understanding what it means to be on the side of the outlaw. A lot of people think of themselves as on the side of outlaws in general without ever realizing that they have never once taken the side of anyone accused of being a criminal. So yeah, it's glorified in media, but I'm not sure it translates in practice. I think your real life examples are great, though!
- nostrademons 5y ago
  I'm not sure I really agree with that either. A lot of people would never consider ratting out their neighbors or classmates for smoking weed, for example. Lots of CA suburbanites make it a point not to ask the immigration status of their domestic help, and will do what they can to help out people they know who are at risk of being deported. I had one college dormmate with reported ties to the mafia; I made a mental note not to get on his bad side, but he was a nice guy so I was still friends with him. I had another college classmate whose aunt ran a famous Hollwood prostitution ring and had served time in federal prison; he was a douchebag so I didn't like hanging out with him much, but what his aunt did is her own business. Thomas Watson Sr. still managed to found IBM after being sentenced to a year in jail for anti-trust violations as an NCR salesperson. Chesa Boudin got elected as San Francisco DA even though his parents were sentenced to prison for the felony murders of two police officers. Hell, he's a good example of someone who takes the side of criminals accused of petty theft or small-scale drug crimes. I think there's some small subset of Americans who are Law & Order at all costs, but most people tend to have their own moral judgments about which are just and unjust laws, and they don't judge people harshly (or at all) for being accused of breaking unjust laws. Most people wouldn't take the side of a murderer or child predator. But a drug user or illegal immigrant? Lots of people take their side, even if they aren't one themselves.
  - ksdale 5y ago
    Very good points!
KorematsuFredt 5y ago
What a great summary. Having lived in many countries and born in India, I have actually come to respect these outlaws. Now, that does not mean you gotta love all criminals but without the healthy disrespect for authorities and skepticism of government agencies no society can actually improve. Nearly all women's rights and civil rights movements had government agencies as their greatest opponents. I think the government has learned the lesson post MLK, Rosa Parks incident. The cost of pull of a Rosa Parks like stunt is very very high today. Not only you go to jail pretty quickly in a violent manner, your mugshots appears everywhere on internet, you might lose your job, rental property and low credit score. more importantly your neighbor and friends will hate you for being a criminal without even bothering what crime you did. A classic case is of people who left water for illegal border crossers. It was illegal and yet a great gesture, the right thing to do. But if you have felony against your name, you life is permanently ruined. As a job interviewer you might actually hold such action in high regard but the resume is not going to reach your desk.

ksdale 5y ago

I think as far as pop culture glorifying it, there's an element of people not really understanding what it means to be on the side of the outlaw. A lot of people think of themselves as on the side of outlaws in general without ever realizing that they have never once taken the side of anyone accused of being a criminal. So yeah, it's glorified in media, but I'm not sure it translates in practice. I think your real life examples are great, though!

nostrademons 5y ago
I'm not sure I really agree with that either. A lot of people would never consider ratting out their neighbors or classmates for smoking weed, for example. Lots of CA suburbanites make it a point not to ask the immigration status of their domestic help, and will do what they can to help out people they know who are at risk of being deported. I had one college dormmate with reported ties to the mafia; I made a mental note not to get on his bad side, but he was a nice guy so I was still friends with him. I had another college classmate whose aunt ran a famous Hollwood prostitution ring and had served time in federal prison; he was a douchebag so I didn't like hanging out with him much, but what his aunt did is her own business. Thomas Watson Sr. still managed to found IBM after being sentenced to a year in jail for anti-trust violations as an NCR salesperson. Chesa Boudin got elected as San Francisco DA even though his parents were sentenced to prison for the felony murders of two police officers. Hell, he's a good example of someone who takes the side of criminals accused of petty theft or small-scale drug crimes. I think there's some small subset of Americans who are Law & Order at all costs, but most people tend to have their own moral judgments about which are just and unjust laws, and they don't judge people harshly (or at all) for being accused of breaking unjust laws. Most people wouldn't take the side of a murderer or child predator. But a drug user or illegal immigrant? Lots of people take their side, even if they aren't one themselves.
- ksdale 5y ago
  Very good points!

KorematsuFredt 5y ago

What a great summary. Having lived in many countries and born in India, I have actually come to respect these outlaws. Now, that does not mean you gotta love all criminals but without the healthy disrespect for authorities and skepticism of government agencies no society can actually improve. Nearly all women's rights and civil rights movements had government agencies as their greatest opponents. I think the government has learned the lesson post MLK, Rosa Parks incident. The cost of pull of a Rosa Parks like stunt is very very high today. Not only you go to jail pretty quickly in a violent manner, your mugshots appears everywhere on internet, you might lose your job, rental property and low credit score. more importantly your neighbor and friends will hate you for being a criminal without even bothering what crime you did. A classic case is of people who left water for illegal border crossers. It was illegal and yet a great gesture, the right thing to do. But if you have felony against your name, you life is permanently ruined. As a job interviewer you might actually hold such action in high regard but the resume is not going to reach your desk.