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I am not convinced music prices were "unfair" -- they were higher than people wanted to pay. There is a distinction.

by adamc 5y ago

danuker 5y ago
What is a fair price? There is no such thing. An economically optimal price is one that maximizes total profit. If it's too high, fewer people will buy the product, which might reduce profit. If it's too low, the profit margin will be small in spite of lots of units sold.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > What is a fair price? There is no such thing It's subjective, but that doesn't make it nonexistent. I pay $10/mo. for Spotify. I'm happy with that. I think I get great value for that money spent. If someone came out with an $8/month streaming service, I'd scrutinize it fairly closely before contemplating switching.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > It's subjective, but that doesn't make it nonexistent. Yes, it does. Subjective assessments have no objective reality.
    - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
      > Subjective assessments have no objective reality Subjective assessments drive political preferences and policy, to say nothing of human relations and experiences.
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        Hallicinations of the expressed wishes of divine figures do that, too. Still doesn't make those figures, or their wishes, real. Beliefs about fair prices exist, fair prices themselves do not.
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    Are you actually saying that you would refuse to use a service (all other things being equal) that was $8/month because $10/month is what you think is "fair?" If so, I'd mark that behavior as strange, and not actually evidence of the existence of a "fair price." There's no way this behavior is typical. If what you're saying is that you'd assume a price lower than $10/month would have other, unseen problems, then: 1) You're not referring to a "fair price" but instead a believable price, which is a compromise between what you want to pay (which is nothing) and what you estimate to be the price of delivery, and the odds with that price in mind that what you receive will be adulterated/lower-quality than advertised. 2) How is $10/month fair? No wonder musicians don't make any money.
- slaymaker1907 5y ago
  Only if you assume humans are purely self centered rational agents. In practice, many people do care about what a "fair" price is and don't just charge as much as possible in pursuit of profit.
  - belltaco 5y ago
    We are talking about music, not insulin. There's probably hundreds of millions of different songs including the ability to listen for free on radio with ads, YT etc.
- adamc 5y ago
  This is an absurdly limited point of view. If I charge 3x as much as other vendors, then force them to raise their prices by firebombing businesses that don't comply, it might (conceivably) maximize profit, but most people would think it unfair, largely because it was founded on unfair restraint of trade. I don't think the prices on music were unfair before. No one has to have music, and there was no evidence that the prices were enforced by unfair practices. They were just higher than people wanted to pay. But most people would say that Enron's manipulation of energy markets was quite unfair.
  - nybble41 5y ago
    > there was no evidence that the prices were enforced by unfair practices Copyright is the unfair practice at work here enforcing high prices for distribution of information, a service which can be provided at practically zero cost when not restrained by force.
- dqpb 5y ago
  > An economically optimal price is one that maximizes total profit. The economically optimal price is the one that maximizes total value in the long run.
  - danuker 5y ago
    > maximizes total value in the long run. What value? Units sold/quantity of product? If so, should businesses operate at breakeven in the long run? This is an interesting take, it is optimal for everyone, not just the producers. I agree that this would be the ideal scenario for society. The problem is - how to arrive at it? Profit sends a message that offering X instead of Y is more profitable - and therefore, better use of one's time. How would you reduce/remove profit without destroying incentives to innovate or even pivot to new industries?
- kbad1000 5y ago
  Yes, but it depends if the goods or service is essential. Is knowledge/ education/ access to information essential?
scns 5y ago
Hm, unfair to whom. Do you know how much the artists actually receive? There are clauses from the days of shipping vinyl to record stores, regarding breakage of disks. The label keeps a percentage (5% - 10% can't remember correctly), for broken disks. They still use these clauses decades after they have <edit>lost</edit> any basis in reality. The Police financed the recordings themselves, to get higher royalty percentages. Have you read about majors suing artists for damages after their albums flopped? How much do the people earn that made the music in the first place? https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/aug/19/zoe-keating-spotify-streaming-royalties https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/aug/19/zoe-keati... https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2019/12/06/zoe-keating-spotify-royalties-declining/ https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2019/12/06/zoe-keating-spot... Further reading here, published 21 years ago: https://www.salon.com/2000/06/14/love_7/ https://www.salon.com/2000/06/14/love_7/

I am not convinced music prices were "unfair" -- they were higher than people wanted to pay. There is a distinction.

by adamc 5y ago

I am not convinced music prices were "unfair" -- they were higher than people wanted to pay. There is a distinction.

What is a fair price? There is no such thing. An economically optimal price is one that maximizes total profit. If it's too high, fewer people will buy the product, which might reduce profit. If it's too low, the profit margin will be small in spite of lots of units sold.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> What is a fair price? There is no such thing It's subjective, but that doesn't make it nonexistent. I pay $10/mo. for Spotify. I'm happy with that. I think I get great value for that money spent. If someone came out with an $8/month streaming service, I'd scrutinize it fairly closely before contemplating switching.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > It's subjective, but that doesn't make it nonexistent. Yes, it does. Subjective assessments have no objective reality.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > Subjective assessments have no objective reality Subjective assessments drive political preferences and policy, to say nothing of human relations and experiences.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      Hallicinations of the expressed wishes of divine figures do that, too. Still doesn't make those figures, or their wishes, real. Beliefs about fair prices exist, fair prices themselves do not.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  Are you actually saying that you would refuse to use a service (all other things being equal) that was $8/month because $10/month is what you think is "fair?" If so, I'd mark that behavior as strange, and not actually evidence of the existence of a "fair price." There's no way this behavior is typical. If what you're saying is that you'd assume a price lower than $10/month would have other, unseen problems, then: 1) You're not referring to a "fair price" but instead a believable price, which is a compromise between what you want to pay (which is nothing) and what you estimate to be the price of delivery, and the odds with that price in mind that what you receive will be adulterated/lower-quality than advertised. 2) How is $10/month fair? No wonder musicians don't make any money.
slaymaker1907 5y ago
Only if you assume humans are purely self centered rational agents. In practice, many people do care about what a "fair" price is and don't just charge as much as possible in pursuit of profit.
- belltaco 5y ago
  We are talking about music, not insulin. There's probably hundreds of millions of different songs including the ability to listen for free on radio with ads, YT etc.
adamc 5y ago
This is an absurdly limited point of view. If I charge 3x as much as other vendors, then force them to raise their prices by firebombing businesses that don't comply, it might (conceivably) maximize profit, but most people would think it unfair, largely because it was founded on unfair restraint of trade. I don't think the prices on music were unfair before. No one has to have music, and there was no evidence that the prices were enforced by unfair practices. They were just higher than people wanted to pay. But most people would say that Enron's manipulation of energy markets was quite unfair.
- nybble41 5y ago
  > there was no evidence that the prices were enforced by unfair practices Copyright is the unfair practice at work here enforcing high prices for distribution of information, a service which can be provided at practically zero cost when not restrained by force.
dqpb 5y ago
> An economically optimal price is one that maximizes total profit. The economically optimal price is the one that maximizes total value in the long run.
- danuker 5y ago
  > maximizes total value in the long run. What value? Units sold/quantity of product? If so, should businesses operate at breakeven in the long run? This is an interesting take, it is optimal for everyone, not just the producers. I agree that this would be the ideal scenario for society. The problem is - how to arrive at it? Profit sends a message that offering X instead of Y is more profitable - and therefore, better use of one's time. How would you reduce/remove profit without destroying incentives to innovate or even pivot to new industries?
kbad1000 5y ago
Yes, but it depends if the goods or service is essential. Is knowledge/ education/ access to information essential?

scns 5y ago

Hm, unfair to whom. Do you know how much the artists actually receive? There are clauses from the days of shipping vinyl to record stores, regarding breakage of disks. The label keeps a percentage (5% - 10% can't remember correctly), for broken disks. They still use these clauses decades after they have <edit>lost</edit> any basis in reality. The Police financed the recordings themselves, to get higher royalty percentages. Have you read about majors suing artists for damages after their albums flopped? How much do the people earn that made the music in the first place? https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/aug/19/zoe-keating-spotify-streaming-royalties https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/aug/19/zoe-keati... https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2019/12/06/zoe-keating-spotify-royalties-declining/ https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2019/12/06/zoe-keating-spot... Further reading here, published 21 years ago: https://www.salon.com/2000/06/14/love_7/ https://www.salon.com/2000/06/14/love_7/