6 ms·

Rejections, resilience, and rejoicing: getting a tenure-track position

41 points by Topolomancer 5y ago

inciampati 5y ago
Not mentioned: how do you balance family and life needs against "the one true position"? Tenure track is nice, but a lumpy reward like tenure is less attractive than it used to be in olden times. It feels more like a way to tie someone to a particular institution than to reward them for being a good scientist, and liberate them to explore.
- Topolomancer 5y ago
  Author here; that's an excellent point, thank you! With this specific post, I wanted to outline how long the road for most of us is...in social media, you only see the big hits; here, you also get a glimpse behind the scenes. But I should also stress that this is not the end of the road for me, so I expect that more posts on balance and demands will come!
  - kleiba 5y ago
    Congratulations on scoring that job, though. I'm in a similar position that you were in but by the looks of it will now be forced out of academia after >20 years due to lack of short-term funding, and no permanent position in sight. That idea didn't scare me in my 20's but now with three kids, a wife, and a mortgage, it is nerve wrecking. Also, I cannot as easily pack up and move to a different city now which in academia seems to be expected, unless you're tenured.
    - Topolomancer 5y ago
      Thanks a lot! I am sorry to hear stories such as yours...this is indeed a massive problem in many research areas. FWIW: if you want to reach out, I'd be happy to give you my opinion and maybe some inside scoop on the Swiss/German systems if that is helpful.
      - kleiba 5y ago
        Thanks. If you're really interested in helping others out and since you're located in Germany, I suggest to get involved in the following initiative: https://mittelbau.net/ https://mittelbau.net/
        Topolomancer 5y ago
        Will check it out, thanks! BTW: I also tried to get one of these position in Switzerland. No success...they are quite rare :(
  - nextos 5y ago
    You have a nice CV, IMHO certainly good enough for a PI position. I must say that many rejections or ghostings will come from positions that have been advertised but in reality have some predefined candidate in mind... I am surprised some interviewers commented on the lack of journal (vs conference) publications. This might come from their ignorance about ML publication structure, which is very different I am interested in applying to Helmholtz for a PI position as well next year. Can you comment on the overall process there. Did you find the place attractive? Have you considered EBI/Sanger and BDI@Oxford?
    - Topolomancer 5y ago
      Thanks for your kind comments :) I was also surprised by the questions I got---this was only one place though, and I have some more 'salty' points to make privately. Suffice it to say that the interview process in that particular place was not nice for many reasons. Concerning your other question, feel free to reach out to me for more details :) What I can say briefly is that the process was (a) very quick, (b) very efficient, and (c) very friendly. Essentially, they screened candidates and quickly invited 10 of them to a scientific symposium day (online). We then had interviews with a larger audience as well as one-on-one interviews. All in all, the total selection process took about 3 weeks. People were extremely open and interesting. Truth be told, I anticipated that I would not have a great chance at such a place; for me, this opportunity is highly appreciated because of the research centre structure---this makes certain things like funding acquisition easier than when being embedded at a university. So, yeah, the offer was extremely enticing! EBI and BDI were not on my list at this point; I don't think they had vacancies at my level. I would have considered them as well, even though I am only aware of BDI so far...
wwilim 5y ago
The author says they consider themselves below average, then just a few paragraphs later they happily assume that they barely missed an interview in a group with 6 interviews out of 60.
- Topolomancer 5y ago
  Author here; that was a tongue-in-cheek comment to lighten the mood. The truth is, I don't know the cut off here, of course, and it's probably for the best. I am not sure whether knowing your full ranking would be useful.
jb1991 5y ago
The article talks about wanting to improve the system, and seems to focus on tenure as an important goal in and of itself, but in the quest to make systemic improvements, it would be more well-rounded to remark on the broader debate about the true role of tenure in the world, and the many reasons why it is often not a good benefit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_tenure#Arguments_against https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_tenure#Arguments_agai...
- Topolomancer 5y ago
  Author here; thanks for pointing this out! I think my focus on improving might be too myopic; so far, I have not considered alternatives to the current system at all (there are certainly some position in which you get a regular working contract similar to what you will find in industry positions, so maybe I should also be more specific when it comes to using the term 'tenure track'). As usual, it is exactly this type of comment that I appreciate in an HN discussion!
- kiba 5y ago
  If we want people to do long term research, tenure seems to be a good idea, especially for those who are self motivated. However, forcing professors conform to notion of performance entails the drawback and benefits and all that entails and long term risky projects neglected.
  - nextos 5y ago
    Some places like HHMI/Janelia (not affiliated) are trying to hire people and give them a lot of cash and money to pursue ambitious things. I think this is the correct approach, and history shows that really successful organizations (CSHL, Bell Labs, LMB Cambridge) used to operate like this at their peak of productivity. Sadly, current universities are totally driven by metrics and corridor politics, which leads to many publications with small incremental ideas.
    - Topolomancer 5y ago
      That is my experience for some of the interviews as well, by the way. Some places give you direct metrics of papers to achieve. I can understand that you need to 'prove' yourself, but as an old 'Settlers of Catan' player, I am wondering whether 2 Nature Papers, for instance, can be exchanged for 1 Science one (or vice versa). This sort of metrics is something else :|
selimthegrim 5y ago
NYT today: “The Fight About Tenure Is Not Really About Tenure” https://nyti.ms/3hJJwuH https://nyti.ms/3hJJwuH

41 points by Topolomancer 5y ago

Not mentioned: how do you balance family and life needs against "the one true position"? Tenure track is nice, but a lumpy reward like tenure is less attractive than it used to be in olden times. It feels more like a way to tie someone to a particular institution than to reward them for being a good scientist, and liberate them to explore.

Topolomancer 5y ago
Author here; that's an excellent point, thank you! With this specific post, I wanted to outline how long the road for most of us is...in social media, you only see the big hits; here, you also get a glimpse behind the scenes. But I should also stress that this is not the end of the road for me, so I expect that more posts on balance and demands will come!
- kleiba 5y ago
  Congratulations on scoring that job, though. I'm in a similar position that you were in but by the looks of it will now be forced out of academia after >20 years due to lack of short-term funding, and no permanent position in sight. That idea didn't scare me in my 20's but now with three kids, a wife, and a mortgage, it is nerve wrecking. Also, I cannot as easily pack up and move to a different city now which in academia seems to be expected, unless you're tenured.
  - Topolomancer 5y ago
    Thanks a lot! I am sorry to hear stories such as yours...this is indeed a massive problem in many research areas. FWIW: if you want to reach out, I'd be happy to give you my opinion and maybe some inside scoop on the Swiss/German systems if that is helpful.
    - kleiba 5y ago
      Thanks. If you're really interested in helping others out and since you're located in Germany, I suggest to get involved in the following initiative: https://mittelbau.net/ https://mittelbau.net/
      - Topolomancer 5y ago
        Will check it out, thanks! BTW: I also tried to get one of these position in Switzerland. No success...they are quite rare :(
- nextos 5y ago
  You have a nice CV, IMHO certainly good enough for a PI position. I must say that many rejections or ghostings will come from positions that have been advertised but in reality have some predefined candidate in mind... I am surprised some interviewers commented on the lack of journal (vs conference) publications. This might come from their ignorance about ML publication structure, which is very different I am interested in applying to Helmholtz for a PI position as well next year. Can you comment on the overall process there. Did you find the place attractive? Have you considered EBI/Sanger and BDI@Oxford?
  - Topolomancer 5y ago
    Thanks for your kind comments :) I was also surprised by the questions I got---this was only one place though, and I have some more 'salty' points to make privately. Suffice it to say that the interview process in that particular place was not nice for many reasons. Concerning your other question, feel free to reach out to me for more details :) What I can say briefly is that the process was (a) very quick, (b) very efficient, and (c) very friendly. Essentially, they screened candidates and quickly invited 10 of them to a scientific symposium day (online). We then had interviews with a larger audience as well as one-on-one interviews. All in all, the total selection process took about 3 weeks. People were extremely open and interesting. Truth be told, I anticipated that I would not have a great chance at such a place; for me, this opportunity is highly appreciated because of the research centre structure---this makes certain things like funding acquisition easier than when being embedded at a university. So, yeah, the offer was extremely enticing! EBI and BDI were not on my list at this point; I don't think they had vacancies at my level. I would have considered them as well, even though I am only aware of BDI so far...

wwilim 5y ago

The author says they consider themselves below average, then just a few paragraphs later they happily assume that they barely missed an interview in a group with 6 interviews out of 60.

Topolomancer 5y ago
Author here; that was a tongue-in-cheek comment to lighten the mood. The truth is, I don't know the cut off here, of course, and it's probably for the best. I am not sure whether knowing your full ranking would be useful.

jb1991 5y ago

The article talks about wanting to improve the system, and seems to focus on tenure as an important goal in and of itself, but in the quest to make systemic improvements, it would be more well-rounded to remark on the broader debate about the true role of tenure in the world, and the many reasons why it is often not a good benefit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_tenure#Arguments_against https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_tenure#Arguments_agai...

Topolomancer 5y ago
Author here; thanks for pointing this out! I think my focus on improving might be too myopic; so far, I have not considered alternatives to the current system at all (there are certainly some position in which you get a regular working contract similar to what you will find in industry positions, so maybe I should also be more specific when it comes to using the term 'tenure track'). As usual, it is exactly this type of comment that I appreciate in an HN discussion!
kiba 5y ago
If we want people to do long term research, tenure seems to be a good idea, especially for those who are self motivated. However, forcing professors conform to notion of performance entails the drawback and benefits and all that entails and long term risky projects neglected.
- nextos 5y ago
  Some places like HHMI/Janelia (not affiliated) are trying to hire people and give them a lot of cash and money to pursue ambitious things. I think this is the correct approach, and history shows that really successful organizations (CSHL, Bell Labs, LMB Cambridge) used to operate like this at their peak of productivity. Sadly, current universities are totally driven by metrics and corridor politics, which leads to many publications with small incremental ideas.
  - Topolomancer 5y ago
    That is my experience for some of the interviews as well, by the way. Some places give you direct metrics of papers to achieve. I can understand that you need to 'prove' yourself, but as an old 'Settlers of Catan' player, I am wondering whether 2 Nature Papers, for instance, can be exchanged for 1 Science one (or vice versa). This sort of metrics is something else :|

selimthegrim 5y ago

NYT today: “The Fight About Tenure Is Not Really About Tenure” https://nyti.ms/3hJJwuH https://nyti.ms/3hJJwuH