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I live in Sydney, I love Australian ravens! Once a raven got ran over by a car near my home and sadly died. A group of ravens were "guarding" the body and not
by mastazi 5y ago
I live in Sydney, I love Australian ravens!
Once a raven got ran over by a car near my home and sadly died. A group of ravens were "guarding" the body and not letting any human near it. They were exhibiting highly sophisticated social behaviour, it almost seemed like... a funeral?
Of course we shouldn't attempt to anthropomorphise animal behaviour, it was not a funeral but I would like to get an explanation from someone who knows about this topic. What were those ravens doing?
(Edit: it was very impressive they were doing a type of vocalisation that they don't usually perform, and they were close to the ground and near the body, not up among the trees where they usually spend most of their time).
(Edit2: the birds were not on the ground, but near the ground, on top of a low fence and on top of a couple of parked cars)
- BiteCode_dev 5y ago> Of course we shouldn't attempt to anthropomorphise animal behaviour Why not? Our behavior emerged from a primitive animal state. It's not crazy to think it can happen again. The only mistake would be to pretend it's the definitive answer, but unless we got one, it can be one of the theories.
- fogihujy 5y agoAccording to Wikipedia, European Magpies have been observed performing funeral rites (alas, the link to the study is gone). It's not impossible you witnessed a similar but undocumented phenomena.
- mastazi 5y agoThank you, I will try and find that study. European magpies (unlike Australian magpies) are actually related to ravens (family corvidae, whereas Aussie magpies are in the family artamidae)
- 867-5309 5y agoprotecting their next meal?
- comprev 5y agoI misread "ravens" for "ravers" and wondered why a bunch of people probably off their nut would be guarding a body...
- dwd 5y agoCloser to a post-mortem. They apparently do a threat assessment so this particular cause of death can be avoided in future - though standing in a group on the road is maybe not the brightest idea.
- mastazi 5y ago> Closer to a post-mortem. They apparently do a threat assessment so this particular cause of death can be avoided in future wow that's interesting I would love to read more about it if you have any links. > though standing in a group on the road is maybe not the brightest idea. They were not exactly on the road pavement but on top of lower objects e.g. a couple of nearby fences and a couple of parked cars just next to where the other raven died.
- melbourne_mat 5y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixYVFZnNl6s&t=1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixYVFZnNl6s&t=1 From my son's favourite YouTube channel. These are American Ravens but probably similar to the Aussie variety behaviour wise.
- mastazi 5y agoWow thank you, yes this is very similar behaviour, the only thing that was different with the Aussie ones was their call
- samhwr 5y ago> though standing in a group on the road is maybe not the brightest idea I wouldn’t judge ravens too harshly. Insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan were notorious for booby-trapping bodies in order to take out first responders - so humans are clearly not impervious to making the same mistake.
- lostlogin 5y ago> Closer to a post-mortem. They apparently do a threat assessment so this particular cause of death can be avoided in future It a sounds more like an occupational health and safety investigation, or am inquest.
- rozab 5y agohttps://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/151003-animals-science-crows-birds-culture-brains https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/151003-an... This is well documented in a variety of corvid species. I think it's unfair to dismiss this as anthropomorphising. Our grief, too, has an evolutionary purpose.
- jonathanstrange 5y agoOut of curiosity, what is the evolutionary purpose of grief in your opinion?
- skhr0680 5y agoIf someone from your party dying makes you sad, maybe you will try harder to keep them alive
- tomhoward 5y agoAlso, when we gather to share stories of a person's life (and circumstances of their death), we can gain valuable insights and motivation to help us live a good and long life ourselves.
- brokenmachine 5y agoOr what behaviors to avoid lest you be the next victim?
- wavefunction 5y agoThat act of communal mourning can also serve to reinforce social bonds among the living members of the group, at least in my estimation. I recently held a memorial service for my father (shakes fist at Parkinson's) but the thing that struck me was the younger members of our extended family experiencing some of that shared bond between the older ones, perhaps learning to appreciate their family members more. They hadn't known my father as brother or uncle but their parents and grandparents had. A sense of belonging to something a bit larger than the individual experience... I have no scientific evidence to support these suppositions but it seems they must be real, to me.
- modernerd 5y agoKaeli Swift (https://corvidresearch.blog/ https://corvidresearch.blog/ and https://twitter.com/corvidresearch https://twitter.com/corvidresearch ) has an FAQ on this at https://corvidresearch.blog/faqs-about-crows/#crows-funeral https://corvidresearch.blog/faqs-about-crows/#crows-funeral: > 4) Why do crows gather around their dead? Certainly one reason is that the death of a crow can offer a “teachable moment” that other crows use to learn that the place and responsible party is dangerous. You can read more about this behavior here: https://corvidresearch.blog/2015/09/26/why-crows-gather-around-their-dead/ https://corvidresearch.blog/2015/09/26/why-crows-gather-arou...
- mastazi 5y agoGreat, thank you for the link!
- drclau 5y ago> Of course we shouldn't attempt to anthropomorphise animal behaviour I'm not holding this against you in any way :), but I wanted to say I'm getting tired of this "don't anthropomorphise animals" trend. Some bird species are clearly highly intelligent, and I feel that this 'opposition to anthropomorphising' is used to downplay this fact, and animal intelligence in general. Regarding the crows funeral or vigil, I suspect this has been observed a long time ago by humans, and is the reason for the association of crows with death in some cultures.
- harpersealtako 5y agoI think the complaint against anthropomorphism is usually about ascribing emotions, not intelligence. Nobody can deny that ravens exhibit complex behavior around their dead, suggesting some level of understanding of death and mortality. But if one starts to claim that the ravens feel "sadness" or "grief", that is a much less grounded or provable claim, that is more likely based in our human reaction to death than the ravens' understanding of it.
- mastazi 5y agoWhen I say don't anthropomorphise animals, I don't mean it in a diminutive manner. I grew up on a farm. People who know next to nothing about animals are often quick to let me know that it's not humane for farmers to treat chickens that way or to treat sheep that other way, because "how would you like being treated like that". Two examples of why this line of thinking is flawed: taking a sheep from standing position down to the ground, will have the effect of calming the sheep. Some types of fish that are used in aquaculture will calm down and decrease their stress levels if you turn off the lights. If someone suddenly takes you down while you're walking down the road, or suddenly turns off the light while you are in a stressful situation, you will probably freak out. That's because you're not a sheep or a fish.
- rossdavidh 5y agoI've seen grackles in Austin, Texas, USA do something similar around one of their own that had flown into a window and was badly stunned. It did seem to prevent any feral cats or other predators from being tempted to come by, and the noise might have been an attempt to wake up the stunned one (who wasn't there when we came back from lunch, so I assume survived).