5 ms·

Barcelona gives free annual public transport tickets to former car owners

52 points by DoreenMichele 5y ago

1cvmask 5y ago
I wonder if this will lead to the cobra effect as it applies to former car owners only: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive
bantunes 5y ago
It's really nice to see Barcelona at the forefront of innovative city planning. They also introduced "superblocks" a few years ago https://www.archdaily.com/796252/how-barcelonas-superblocks-pedestrian-plan-hopes-to-return-the-streets-to-the-people https://www.archdaily.com/796252/how-barcelonas-superblocks-...
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  They did, but it never really took off except for a few experiment blocks, unfortunately.
tomjen3 5y ago
I am getting more and more disapointed by all these incentives to take public transportation that can only think about making them cheaper or try to make them faster to compete with cars. It is time that we consider other ideas. I would like to recommend one of the best Ted talks https://www.ted.com/talks/rory_sutherland_life_lessons_from_an_ad_man https://www.ted.com/talks/rory_sutherland_life_lessons_from_.... It is not specifically about public transportation, but about the larger question of what is value - and has a great example of how to apply it to public transportation.
- 0-_-0 5y ago
  Excellent TED talk!
- pornel 5y ago
  In dense cities public transport often already is faster than a car. For example, average car speed in London is 8 to 12mph. It's not hard to beat that, even with an e-bike. https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2019/19767 https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2019/19767 Another aspect is that moving people to public transport itself is the way to make it faster. Cars are an incredibly inefficient way of using road space, so fewer cars on the road leave more space for more efficient transport modes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_flow#/media/File:Road_Space_Requirements.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_flow#/media/File:Road_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_flow#/media/File:Passenger_Capacity_of_different_Transport_Modes.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_flow#/media/File:Passe...
41209 5y ago
Any reason to not simply make all public transit free. I'd assume once you factor in reduction in traffic, car accidents, etc. It would more than pay for itself .
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > not simply make all public transit free Not sure if Barcelona has this problem, but in New York, that would turn the subway system into a moving homeless camp.
  - remarkEon 5y ago
    How much of the overall transit demand in NYC is serviced by public transit? Isn’t it already super high? The homelessness issue is one problem, yes, but I also wonder about how much more traffic the subways could actually support.
  - 41209 5y ago
    Like homeless people can't jump the turnstiles. In most cities I've lived homeless people don't pay fares regardless. Considering fare enforcement is very expensive, I imagine making it completely free would be be cheaper. The Utopian in me imagines a struggling working class person saving a significant amount of money. To us, 200 or 400$ a month for public transportation isn't a big deal, but if your only making 2k a month that's a ton of money. I already pay sky high taxes, I figure the city can pay for public transportation out of that.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - Larrikin 5y ago
      What cities are you talking about, I'm guessing not in America? Fare enforcement is one of the few pro arguments for the broken window theory. I've never been on any subway system in the US that didn't have attendants near the gates and they have no qualms stopping trains while the transit police come. Homeless people get on the train and ride all day but they put in their couple dollars at the beginning of the trip.
alephu5 5y ago
This feels a bit like being in school and seeing the naughty kids being offered sweets or privileges, meanwhile the good kids get nothing because they're already well-behaved.
rsj_hn 5y ago
1.6 million people with 540,000 new cars registered each year, and 12000 cars retired. This looks very much like people retiring cars anyway (getting too old to drive, etc) and getting a free transit pass as a bonus. It’s nice but with no measurable impact on car ownership. If Barcelona is truly worried about congestion, then there are options like congestion taxes that London has used in its most touristy areas in order to try to decrease vehicle traffic there. But if you want people to give up car ownership entirely, a lot more than some free tickets for public transport in a select number of zones will be needed, as people already have the option of using public transport, and it is not so expensive relative to the cost of car ownership that reducing the costs a bit will change the equation for a lot of people.
ZeroGravitas 5y ago
It's not really spelled out in this article, but as cities introduce Low Emission Zones, everyone that lives in or commutes into the area needs to have a car that meets the new regulations if they don't want to be heavily fined or banned. Some people were going to buy a new car anyway, and can afford whatever kind is needed they just need to be aware of the incentives to do so. Some people might be able to afford the TCO of an EV, but not have the up front cash to pay for one, especially if they take a loss on selling their recent purchase. Zero interest loans for EVs are a common policy choice for this group. This then is a complementary policy aimed at the people who have just enough money to fill the tank on their old car, but not enough to buy a new one. The "lump sum" of 3 years of free public transport in that area helps to ease the transition for them, potentially letting them save up, or wait for cheaper second hand vehicles, or just use the bus and spend the money on other things.

52 points by DoreenMichele 5y ago

I wonder if this will lead to the cobra effect as it applies to former car owners only: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive

bantunes 5y ago

It's really nice to see Barcelona at the forefront of innovative city planning. They also introduced "superblocks" a few years ago https://www.archdaily.com/796252/how-barcelonas-superblocks-pedestrian-plan-hopes-to-return-the-streets-to-the-people https://www.archdaily.com/796252/how-barcelonas-superblocks-...

GekkePrutser 5y ago
They did, but it never really took off except for a few experiment blocks, unfortunately.

tomjen3 5y ago

I am getting more and more disapointed by all these incentives to take public transportation that can only think about making them cheaper or try to make them faster to compete with cars. It is time that we consider other ideas. I would like to recommend one of the best Ted talks https://www.ted.com/talks/rory_sutherland_life_lessons_from_an_ad_man https://www.ted.com/talks/rory_sutherland_life_lessons_from_.... It is not specifically about public transportation, but about the larger question of what is value - and has a great example of how to apply it to public transportation.

0-_-0 5y ago
Excellent TED talk!
pornel 5y ago
In dense cities public transport often already is faster than a car. For example, average car speed in London is 8 to 12mph. It's not hard to beat that, even with an e-bike. https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2019/19767 https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2019/19767 Another aspect is that moving people to public transport itself is the way to make it faster. Cars are an incredibly inefficient way of using road space, so fewer cars on the road leave more space for more efficient transport modes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_flow#/media/File:Road_Space_Requirements.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_flow#/media/File:Road_... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_flow#/media/File:Passenger_Capacity_of_different_Transport_Modes.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_flow#/media/File:Passe...

41209 5y ago

Any reason to not simply make all public transit free. I'd assume once you factor in reduction in traffic, car accidents, etc. It would more than pay for itself .

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> not simply make all public transit free Not sure if Barcelona has this problem, but in New York, that would turn the subway system into a moving homeless camp.
- remarkEon 5y ago
  How much of the overall transit demand in NYC is serviced by public transit? Isn’t it already super high? The homelessness issue is one problem, yes, but I also wonder about how much more traffic the subways could actually support.
- 41209 5y ago
  Like homeless people can't jump the turnstiles. In most cities I've lived homeless people don't pay fares regardless. Considering fare enforcement is very expensive, I imagine making it completely free would be be cheaper. The Utopian in me imagines a struggling working class person saving a significant amount of money. To us, 200 or 400$ a month for public transportation isn't a big deal, but if your only making 2k a month that's a ton of money. I already pay sky high taxes, I figure the city can pay for public transportation out of that.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Larrikin 5y ago
    What cities are you talking about, I'm guessing not in America? Fare enforcement is one of the few pro arguments for the broken window theory. I've never been on any subway system in the US that didn't have attendants near the gates and they have no qualms stopping trains while the transit police come. Homeless people get on the train and ride all day but they put in their couple dollars at the beginning of the trip.

alephu5 5y ago

This feels a bit like being in school and seeing the naughty kids being offered sweets or privileges, meanwhile the good kids get nothing because they're already well-behaved.

rsj_hn 5y ago

1.6 million people with 540,000 new cars registered each year, and 12000 cars retired. This looks very much like people retiring cars anyway (getting too old to drive, etc) and getting a free transit pass as a bonus. It’s nice but with no measurable impact on car ownership. If Barcelona is truly worried about congestion, then there are options like congestion taxes that London has used in its most touristy areas in order to try to decrease vehicle traffic there. But if you want people to give up car ownership entirely, a lot more than some free tickets for public transport in a select number of zones will be needed, as people already have the option of using public transport, and it is not so expensive relative to the cost of car ownership that reducing the costs a bit will change the equation for a lot of people.

ZeroGravitas 5y ago

It's not really spelled out in this article, but as cities introduce Low Emission Zones, everyone that lives in or commutes into the area needs to have a car that meets the new regulations if they don't want to be heavily fined or banned. Some people were going to buy a new car anyway, and can afford whatever kind is needed they just need to be aware of the incentives to do so. Some people might be able to afford the TCO of an EV, but not have the up front cash to pay for one, especially if they take a loss on selling their recent purchase. Zero interest loans for EVs are a common policy choice for this group. This then is a complementary policy aimed at the people who have just enough money to fill the tank on their old car, but not enough to buy a new one. The "lump sum" of 3 years of free public transport in that area helps to ease the transition for them, potentially letting them save up, or wait for cheaper second hand vehicles, or just use the bus and spend the money on other things.