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No I do put most of the blame on conservatives. They're the ones who aren't taking vaccines or wearing masks. It just doesn't excuse some liberals from encoura

No I do put most of the blame on conservatives. They're the ones who aren't taking vaccines or wearing masks. It just doesn't excuse some liberals from encouraging this left/right divide and just being nasty. Things like r/HermanCainAward, being proud when vaccine deniers get sick. At least understand that when someone is literally putting themselves in danger, they're not evil or selfish, they're delusional and misinformed.

void_mint 5y ago
> No I do put most of the blame on conservatives. They're the ones who aren't taking vaccines or wearing masks. My comment was about how, if this statement is true, you mostly skipped over it in favor of asking for action out of non-conservatives.
nkrisc 5y ago
Everyone has a choice. They choose their actions, they choose who to listen to, they choose what to believe. They choose to be open or closed minded. They choose to listen to new ideas or not. A lot of people are choosing wrong and suffering for it. They had a choice. No one can take that away from them, they always had a choice. Propaganda only works if you choose to believe it.
- scrollaway 5y ago
  It's not always a free choice. For you and me it might be, because we may have the acquired skills to research sources, spot bullshit, etc. We still miss stuff. But for a lot of people "choosing wrong", it might just be the sum of their environment. A media diet too heavily reliant on Facebook for example. Ah but they're choosing to stay on Facebook you say... Well, yes, but if they can't directly make the link between Facebook and the propaganda, they don't even know they have a choice to make. "Free will exists" is a hand wavy way of victim blaming here, imo. There is a reason these people are called victims of propaganda, not willful soldiers.
  - nkrisc 5y ago
    For what it's worth, I don't disagree with you entirely. However I don't think it's as simple as being helpless victims of propaganda or other deceitful information. Everyone has the choice to ask, "but what if they're wrong?" That simple question alone illuminates the incremental path to greater understanding (however long the journey may be). Many of these people who have been enthralled by the narrative that vaccines are dangerous and unnecessary are otherwise normal people. They're able to function in their jobs and day to day life. If they believed everything anyone told them they'd never be able to function in society, and yet they do function. Precisely because they are able to choose who and what to believe; we all do it every day! They choose to never question certain sources or authorities. It's a willful choice.
listenallyall 5y ago
> conservatives. They're the ones who aren't taking vaccines or wearing masks. Minorities (POC, Latinx) have the lowest vaccination rates. Do these groups generally lean conservative? https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/health/black-and-latino-communities-often-have-low-vaccination-rates-but-blaming-vaccine-hesitancy-misses-the-mark https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/health...
- chitowneats 5y ago
  It's so strange the way that American liberals hand-wave low vax rates in minority communities. Vague references to the "Tuskegee Experiments", a real event that of course has had some effect on the way some minorities view Western medicine and vaccines. Or notions of "access", despite the vaccines being completely free and widely available for many months. Tuskegee was many decades ago. There are much more recent examples of the pharmaceutical industry and doctors prescribing a product to millions of Americans that was later shown to be harmful, at least for some patients. I'm of course referring to Oxycontin and other supposedly "non-addictive" opioids. Hundreds of thousands of Americans have died as a result of these drugs. Countless more lives stunted or ruined. In my view, events like this explain a great deal of working-class (including white, who heavily lean Republican) skepticism about novel treatments. Just today, Pfizer issued a complete recall of the anti-smoking drug, Chantix, after discovering it can increase cancer risk: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/shopping/2021/09/17/chantix-recall-2021-pfizer-cancer-risk-smoking-cessation-drug/8385350002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/shopping/2021/09/17/cha... I hope we all can have more empathy for anyone who is skeptical after witnessing or experiencing harm after a incident like this. I'm not saying all fear or skepticism is valid or warranted. Just that I wish people would not judge the individuals involved for their (presumed) politics, and work towards greater education and understanding.
  - void_mint 5y ago
    > It's so strange the way that American liberals hand-wave low vax rates in minority communities. As you've commented (but then hand waved), the motive behind the distrust. "An orange man told me" vs. "The US government has spent hundreds of years oppressing our people, and the US medical system fails minorities consistently time and time again".
int_19h 5y ago
There's a reason why this kind of content is going to dominate any online discussion platform. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc
giantrobot 5y ago
> At least understand that when someone is literally putting themselves in danger, they're not evil or selfish, they're delusional and misinformed. I think you'll find most "liberals" are pretty understanding that militant anti-vaxxers are delusional and misinformed. The issue is less with their delusion and more with the militancy of their delusion and the societal consequences. If the militant anti-vaxxers instead of being anti-vax were just pro-drinking bleach then the danger of that delusion would be personal. Only idiots drinking bleach would be harmed. What's happening though is the delusion of the militant anti-vaxxers is causing problems for everyone. They're breaking if they haven't broken hospital systems in many parts of the country, they're a breeding ground for new variants of the virus, and they're actively fighting mitigation measures to contain the spread of the virus in kids who can't be vaccinated. People that have acted rationally and have socially distanced, worn masks, and gotten vaccinated are being negatively affected every day by delusional sociopaths. These same delusional sociopaths have made every aspect of the pandemic worse. Why should anyone feel the need to keep coddling them? The militant anti-vaxxers are keeping the pandemic a pandemic, had they gotten fucking vaccines we could have COVID at least partially under control at endemic levels. Their words and actions advertise the fact they are sociopaths. Dealing with them is exhausting and unrewarding. It's sad that positions on vaccines tracks so closely to political persuasion. At the same time if delusional sociopathy is part and parcel of a so-called political philosophy maybe that suggests a little self-reflection is needed for its proponents.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  I'm pro lockdown. Vaccines are a red herring and relying on them is ignoring science over profit. When we know vaccines still put people at risk why are we not locking everyone down and closing borders?
  - rspeele 5y ago
    I don't understand what the endgame of a locking down a country is, unless there is some better vaccine or treatment coming. As far as I know, COVID isn't going to stop spreading around the rest of the world. So as soon as the lockdown in a given country ends, that country will be exposed to it and face the same pandemic they would have faced in the first place. Now, that makes a lot of sense to me if they are facing it with a new tool in hand (like the vaccine), that means a lot fewer people will die than if they'd gone through it with nothing. But if there is no better treatment coming, what does locking down for 3 months, 6 months, or a year accomplish?
hellotomyrars 5y ago
To be clear, while many of the common people who are taking the largely anti-mask/vaccine messaging from the big voices in their camp aren’t doing it because they’re evil, they are being selfish regardless of the fact they’re delusional and misinformed. To be even more clear however, the kinds of people pushing these viewpoints within their community are actually evil and doing it in bad faith for their own self gain. Even the mainstream conservative voices like Tucker Carlson, who is vaccinated and works at an institution with a vaccine requirement, is using his platform to deliberately cast doubt on its efficacy and safety. He knows better, but he is sending the message his supports want to hear. This is evil. Senators who are going out of their way to make sure nobody can be made to wear a mask in certain settings are doing it deliberately for political points and are objectively evil for this. I don’t fully spite the average person who is listening to and hearing all these voices that align with the rest of their politics and choosing to take the position for no other reason than it’s being fed to them, but there is a limit. And maybe I’m just not aware enough but there is a ton of intentional gritting in the conservative/right-wing space now intentionally pulling on the talking points for a profit motive that I don’t see in left-wing spaces. And that might be okay even, except their also a total scam and bullshit. Selling people a “freedom phone” which is just a rebadge of a cheap Chinese phone (the irony) for a huge markup because it won’t let you be censored. This kind of behavior. Preying on their own audience that they’ve cultivated to specifically exploit them. There is a lot of evil there. I don’t think it’s appropriate to dunk on people dying. But it isn’t really surprising that there is that level of response among some people on the left-leaning space. It’s equivalent to the “owning the libs” on the other side. I’m not in for it personally, but I don’t think it’s any more or less popular on either side. Just the general shape of overall disgusting polarization we’re at now. If people want to live in their own version of reality I don’t care. But when their version of reality is ruining it for the rest of us, it is a problem and there isn’t a lot of room for discussion with someone who isn’t willing to engage with reality.
- mikem170 5y ago
  > If people want to live in their own version of reality I don’t care. But when their version of reality is ruining it for the rest of us, it is a problem Are you sure that is a true statement? What exact ruination are you referring to? Are you saying that we would not have had a delta wave in the U.S. if more people had vaccinated? Or that lockdowns would have gone differently? Or schools? Australia still has a covid problem, despite their lockdowns. Israel is still having covid breakouts, despite their high vaccination rates. It's putting a strain on many health care systems. What do you think will change if we had closer to 100% vaccine compliance? > and there isn’t a lot of room for discussion with someone who isn’t willing to engage with reality. Quite the contrary, there's plenty of room for discussion. You obviously don't understand their point of view. Not everyone thinks the way you do. This ending to your comment struck me as quite dismissive. That's a lot of people you just wrote off. Where does it leave us if we can't talk about these things, and respect our different values?

void_mint 5y ago

> No I do put most of the blame on conservatives. They're the ones who aren't taking vaccines or wearing masks. My comment was about how, if this statement is true, you mostly skipped over it in favor of asking for action out of non-conservatives.

nkrisc 5y ago

Everyone has a choice. They choose their actions, they choose who to listen to, they choose what to believe. They choose to be open or closed minded. They choose to listen to new ideas or not. A lot of people are choosing wrong and suffering for it. They had a choice. No one can take that away from them, they always had a choice. Propaganda only works if you choose to believe it.

scrollaway 5y ago
It's not always a free choice. For you and me it might be, because we may have the acquired skills to research sources, spot bullshit, etc. We still miss stuff. But for a lot of people "choosing wrong", it might just be the sum of their environment. A media diet too heavily reliant on Facebook for example. Ah but they're choosing to stay on Facebook you say... Well, yes, but if they can't directly make the link between Facebook and the propaganda, they don't even know they have a choice to make. "Free will exists" is a hand wavy way of victim blaming here, imo. There is a reason these people are called victims of propaganda, not willful soldiers.
- nkrisc 5y ago
  For what it's worth, I don't disagree with you entirely. However I don't think it's as simple as being helpless victims of propaganda or other deceitful information. Everyone has the choice to ask, "but what if they're wrong?" That simple question alone illuminates the incremental path to greater understanding (however long the journey may be). Many of these people who have been enthralled by the narrative that vaccines are dangerous and unnecessary are otherwise normal people. They're able to function in their jobs and day to day life. If they believed everything anyone told them they'd never be able to function in society, and yet they do function. Precisely because they are able to choose who and what to believe; we all do it every day! They choose to never question certain sources or authorities. It's a willful choice.

listenallyall 5y ago

> conservatives. They're the ones who aren't taking vaccines or wearing masks. Minorities (POC, Latinx) have the lowest vaccination rates. Do these groups generally lean conservative? https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/health/black-and-latino-communities-often-have-low-vaccination-rates-but-blaming-vaccine-hesitancy-misses-the-mark https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/health...

chitowneats 5y ago
It's so strange the way that American liberals hand-wave low vax rates in minority communities. Vague references to the "Tuskegee Experiments", a real event that of course has had some effect on the way some minorities view Western medicine and vaccines. Or notions of "access", despite the vaccines being completely free and widely available for many months. Tuskegee was many decades ago. There are much more recent examples of the pharmaceutical industry and doctors prescribing a product to millions of Americans that was later shown to be harmful, at least for some patients. I'm of course referring to Oxycontin and other supposedly "non-addictive" opioids. Hundreds of thousands of Americans have died as a result of these drugs. Countless more lives stunted or ruined. In my view, events like this explain a great deal of working-class (including white, who heavily lean Republican) skepticism about novel treatments. Just today, Pfizer issued a complete recall of the anti-smoking drug, Chantix, after discovering it can increase cancer risk: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/shopping/2021/09/17/chantix-recall-2021-pfizer-cancer-risk-smoking-cessation-drug/8385350002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/shopping/2021/09/17/cha... I hope we all can have more empathy for anyone who is skeptical after witnessing or experiencing harm after a incident like this. I'm not saying all fear or skepticism is valid or warranted. Just that I wish people would not judge the individuals involved for their (presumed) politics, and work towards greater education and understanding.
- void_mint 5y ago
  > It's so strange the way that American liberals hand-wave low vax rates in minority communities. As you've commented (but then hand waved), the motive behind the distrust. "An orange man told me" vs. "The US government has spent hundreds of years oppressing our people, and the US medical system fails minorities consistently time and time again".

int_19h 5y ago

There's a reason why this kind of content is going to dominate any online discussion platform. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc

giantrobot 5y ago

> At least understand that when someone is literally putting themselves in danger, they're not evil or selfish, they're delusional and misinformed. I think you'll find most "liberals" are pretty understanding that militant anti-vaxxers are delusional and misinformed. The issue is less with their delusion and more with the militancy of their delusion and the societal consequences. If the militant anti-vaxxers instead of being anti-vax were just pro-drinking bleach then the danger of that delusion would be personal. Only idiots drinking bleach would be harmed. What's happening though is the delusion of the militant anti-vaxxers is causing problems for everyone. They're breaking if they haven't broken hospital systems in many parts of the country, they're a breeding ground for new variants of the virus, and they're actively fighting mitigation measures to contain the spread of the virus in kids who can't be vaccinated. People that have acted rationally and have socially distanced, worn masks, and gotten vaccinated are being negatively affected every day by delusional sociopaths. These same delusional sociopaths have made every aspect of the pandemic worse. Why should anyone feel the need to keep coddling them? The militant anti-vaxxers are keeping the pandemic a pandemic, had they gotten fucking vaccines we could have COVID at least partially under control at endemic levels. Their words and actions advertise the fact they are sociopaths. Dealing with them is exhausting and unrewarding. It's sad that positions on vaccines tracks so closely to political persuasion. At the same time if delusional sociopathy is part and parcel of a so-called political philosophy maybe that suggests a little self-reflection is needed for its proponents.

ipaddr 5y ago
I'm pro lockdown. Vaccines are a red herring and relying on them is ignoring science over profit. When we know vaccines still put people at risk why are we not locking everyone down and closing borders?
- rspeele 5y ago
  I don't understand what the endgame of a locking down a country is, unless there is some better vaccine or treatment coming. As far as I know, COVID isn't going to stop spreading around the rest of the world. So as soon as the lockdown in a given country ends, that country will be exposed to it and face the same pandemic they would have faced in the first place. Now, that makes a lot of sense to me if they are facing it with a new tool in hand (like the vaccine), that means a lot fewer people will die than if they'd gone through it with nothing. But if there is no better treatment coming, what does locking down for 3 months, 6 months, or a year accomplish?

hellotomyrars 5y ago

To be clear, while many of the common people who are taking the largely anti-mask/vaccine messaging from the big voices in their camp aren’t doing it because they’re evil, they are being selfish regardless of the fact they’re delusional and misinformed. To be even more clear however, the kinds of people pushing these viewpoints within their community are actually evil and doing it in bad faith for their own self gain. Even the mainstream conservative voices like Tucker Carlson, who is vaccinated and works at an institution with a vaccine requirement, is using his platform to deliberately cast doubt on its efficacy and safety. He knows better, but he is sending the message his supports want to hear. This is evil. Senators who are going out of their way to make sure nobody can be made to wear a mask in certain settings are doing it deliberately for political points and are objectively evil for this. I don’t fully spite the average person who is listening to and hearing all these voices that align with the rest of their politics and choosing to take the position for no other reason than it’s being fed to them, but there is a limit. And maybe I’m just not aware enough but there is a ton of intentional gritting in the conservative/right-wing space now intentionally pulling on the talking points for a profit motive that I don’t see in left-wing spaces. And that might be okay even, except their also a total scam and bullshit. Selling people a “freedom phone” which is just a rebadge of a cheap Chinese phone (the irony) for a huge markup because it won’t let you be censored. This kind of behavior. Preying on their own audience that they’ve cultivated to specifically exploit them. There is a lot of evil there. I don’t think it’s appropriate to dunk on people dying. But it isn’t really surprising that there is that level of response among some people on the left-leaning space. It’s equivalent to the “owning the libs” on the other side. I’m not in for it personally, but I don’t think it’s any more or less popular on either side. Just the general shape of overall disgusting polarization we’re at now. If people want to live in their own version of reality I don’t care. But when their version of reality is ruining it for the rest of us, it is a problem and there isn’t a lot of room for discussion with someone who isn’t willing to engage with reality.

mikem170 5y ago
> If people want to live in their own version of reality I don’t care. But when their version of reality is ruining it for the rest of us, it is a problem Are you sure that is a true statement? What exact ruination are you referring to? Are you saying that we would not have had a delta wave in the U.S. if more people had vaccinated? Or that lockdowns would have gone differently? Or schools? Australia still has a covid problem, despite their lockdowns. Israel is still having covid breakouts, despite their high vaccination rates. It's putting a strain on many health care systems. What do you think will change if we had closer to 100% vaccine compliance? > and there isn’t a lot of room for discussion with someone who isn’t willing to engage with reality. Quite the contrary, there's plenty of room for discussion. You obviously don't understand their point of view. Not everyone thinks the way you do. This ending to your comment struck me as quite dismissive. That's a lot of people you just wrote off. Where does it leave us if we can't talk about these things, and respect our different values?