4 ms·

If you go over older posts on that medium blog, it seems to be a pattern with that particular author. He also has Conway's Game of Life implementation for 7x7 b

If you go over older posts on that medium blog, it seems to be a pattern with that particular author. He also has Conway's Game of Life implementation for 7x7 board, Rule 110 implementation for the tape of 5 elements, "machine learning" article with matrices that are 5x5 -- all because his language has to unroll loops (as Bitcoin script cannot loop), and loops with more iterations are therefore either unfeasible or straigh up impossible in sCrypt. Despite that, he seems to be insistent that "Bitcoin is turing complete". Most curious.

shilch 5y ago
I don't know what you're up to; your account is 30min old, was created just for commenting on this post, you appear to be very aware of this project and your comments show that you didn't understand the solution presented in the article. I already commented on the parent comment: The `loop` in sCrypt is a compile-time loop and just an implementation detail for the lookup in the transition table. The *actual looping* happens outside via bitcoin transactions whereby each transaction is a transition in the TM. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28587465 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28587465
- truth_machine 5y ago
  I am very familiar with Bitcoin script, and it was rather easy to confirm that BSV is using the same set of opcodes, and sCrypt compiles to bitcoin script, with obvious conclusions. So I think that I actually understand the topic (and the article) very well, thank you very much. What am I up to? My beef with the article is quite simple: the article is clearly written with a singular goal in mind, to claim that "Bitcoin is turing complete", with is trivially verifiable falsehood, so I failed to resist "someone is wrong on the internet" impulse. Are you implying that I am arguing in the bad faith? There seem to be many other article by the same author making the same claim, with equally tenuous "proofs": https://xiaohuiliu.medium.com/play-conways-game-of-life-on-bitcoin-forever-47c6fb7ed682 https://xiaohuiliu.medium.com/play-conways-game-of-life-on-b... and https://xiaohuiliu.medium.com/turing-complete-rule-110-on-bitcoin-df014288a05 https://xiaohuiliu.medium.com/turing-complete-rule-110-on-bi... So the question should rather be "what is he up to?". Probably just a promotion for his language or clickbait titles.
  - shilch 5y ago
    Then you either misunderstand or (intentionally?) misrepresent the article. The `loop` construct you're talking about has nothing to do with the author's proof, and neither does it "essentially use bitcoin blockchain as a database" as you have written somewhere else in the thread. For the interested reader, I have commented on these points where they were brought up. To explain the Game of Life contract you're linking to: The `loop`, again, is just an implementation detail to go over each field on the board in a *single* transaction. It's not part of any proof. The actual turing-complete element - letting the GoL run - happens outside: Each generation state transfer happens via a bitcoin transaction.
    - truth_machine 5y ago
      It seems to me that we actually agree on the main points. I do agree with you that single contract transaction is not turing-complete. I also agree that turing-complete element happens outside. My disagreement is with the following: 1. I disagree that "loop is just an implementation detail and is not part of any proof". In the GoL article there is a claim that (a)Game of Life board could simulate a turing machine and (b)article provides implementation of GoL board in sCrypt, therefore "Bitcoin in turing-complete". However, the board in article is limited (due to loop inlining) and cannot be made 1000s x 1000s (as required for the simulation of the turing machine) precisely because of the loop unrolling. I also note that author does not point out this limitation (in any of his articles, it seems) - the claims are always "we can simulate Game of Life, we can do Machine Learning, we can simulate Rule 110 automata" without any mention that these are toy examples that hardly do anything and can't scale even by an order of magnitude. So loop is indeed an implementation detail, but quite essential one, it seems. 2. More broadly, I am agruing against the claim that "Bitcoin is turing complete" made in this and other articles by the same author. But, again, it seems that on this point we are actually in agreement
      - shilch 5y ago
        The loop unrolling is an implementation detail. As I have written somewhere else: You could as well have put a large if-else there to do the transition table lookup. In the GoL example, one generation update is performed in every transaction. Since the board size is known in advance, it totally makes sense to unroll the loop. If you want to do boards larger than that, like the 1000x1000 you mention, you run into script limits. What you can then do instead is, for example, to update the first half of the board in one transaction and then the second half in another transaction, i.e. two transactions are one generation. Bitcoin is turing complete as shown in this article.

shilch 5y ago

I don't know what you're up to; your account is 30min old, was created just for commenting on this post, you appear to be very aware of this project and your comments show that you didn't understand the solution presented in the article. I already commented on the parent comment: The `loop` in sCrypt is a compile-time loop and just an implementation detail for the lookup in the transition table. The *actual looping* happens outside via bitcoin transactions whereby each transaction is a transition in the TM. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28587465 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28587465

truth_machine 5y ago
I am very familiar with Bitcoin script, and it was rather easy to confirm that BSV is using the same set of opcodes, and sCrypt compiles to bitcoin script, with obvious conclusions. So I think that I actually understand the topic (and the article) very well, thank you very much. What am I up to? My beef with the article is quite simple: the article is clearly written with a singular goal in mind, to claim that "Bitcoin is turing complete", with is trivially verifiable falsehood, so I failed to resist "someone is wrong on the internet" impulse. Are you implying that I am arguing in the bad faith? There seem to be many other article by the same author making the same claim, with equally tenuous "proofs": https://xiaohuiliu.medium.com/play-conways-game-of-life-on-bitcoin-forever-47c6fb7ed682 https://xiaohuiliu.medium.com/play-conways-game-of-life-on-b... and https://xiaohuiliu.medium.com/turing-complete-rule-110-on-bitcoin-df014288a05 https://xiaohuiliu.medium.com/turing-complete-rule-110-on-bi... So the question should rather be "what is he up to?". Probably just a promotion for his language or clickbait titles.
- shilch 5y ago
  Then you either misunderstand or (intentionally?) misrepresent the article. The `loop` construct you're talking about has nothing to do with the author's proof, and neither does it "essentially use bitcoin blockchain as a database" as you have written somewhere else in the thread. For the interested reader, I have commented on these points where they were brought up. To explain the Game of Life contract you're linking to: The `loop`, again, is just an implementation detail to go over each field on the board in a *single* transaction. It's not part of any proof. The actual turing-complete element - letting the GoL run - happens outside: Each generation state transfer happens via a bitcoin transaction.
  - truth_machine 5y ago
    It seems to me that we actually agree on the main points. I do agree with you that single contract transaction is not turing-complete. I also agree that turing-complete element happens outside. My disagreement is with the following: 1. I disagree that "loop is just an implementation detail and is not part of any proof". In the GoL article there is a claim that (a)Game of Life board could simulate a turing machine and (b)article provides implementation of GoL board in sCrypt, therefore "Bitcoin in turing-complete". However, the board in article is limited (due to loop inlining) and cannot be made 1000s x 1000s (as required for the simulation of the turing machine) precisely because of the loop unrolling. I also note that author does not point out this limitation (in any of his articles, it seems) - the claims are always "we can simulate Game of Life, we can do Machine Learning, we can simulate Rule 110 automata" without any mention that these are toy examples that hardly do anything and can't scale even by an order of magnitude. So loop is indeed an implementation detail, but quite essential one, it seems. 2. More broadly, I am agruing against the claim that "Bitcoin is turing complete" made in this and other articles by the same author. But, again, it seems that on this point we are actually in agreement
    - shilch 5y ago
      The loop unrolling is an implementation detail. As I have written somewhere else: You could as well have put a large if-else there to do the transition table lookup. In the GoL example, one generation update is performed in every transaction. Since the board size is known in advance, it totally makes sense to unroll the loop. If you want to do boards larger than that, like the 1000x1000 you mention, you run into script limits. What you can then do instead is, for example, to update the first half of the board in one transaction and then the second half in another transaction, i.e. two transactions are one generation. Bitcoin is turing complete as shown in this article.