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I really dislike the conflation of the many different meanings of “elite”. It’s such an emotionally overloaded word. If you define elite status as a top X perce

by epgui 5y ago

I really dislike the conflation of the many different meanings of “elite”. It’s such an emotionally overloaded word. If you define elite status as a top X percentile of income or wealth, then just use the words “rich people”, “wealthy people”, or even better, “high income people”. Using these more specific words get to the core of the matter. The “anti-elite” sentiment, when it becomes overloaded with education status or domain expertise, really pushes my buttons for getting causality wrong in the world’s problems. I digress here, but in other words: yes, it’s a problem that rich folks have more opportunities to become educated and to become experts in their fields, and that regular folks don’t have the same opportunities to do so. But the world’s injustices and problems are not caused by “elites” in the sense of “people who have expertise and authority in their fields”. As an analogy, you can blame (in part) society and government for your lack of maths skills, but you can’t blame “mathematics” (the pure science) or even “mathematicians” for your problems. Pointing the finger in the right direction is super important if you care about accountability and justice.

MattGaiser 5y ago
There was an earlier comment on a different discussion where someone referred to "elites" as basically anyone who worked for the government or had a bachelors degree. It is a lazy way to get people to agree with your argument when they wouldn't if you were forced to define who you precisely mean.
- epgui 5y ago
  Indeed, and it’s also terribly counter-productive in that it borders on anti-intellectualism. If you care about regular folks having a good life and having good opportunities, if you want the American dream (work hard and get rewarded) to be true, then a big part of that requires “vertical mobility”, and that means that you should want regular people to be able to achieve “elite status”. It’s not the existence of elites that is the problem, it’s how fairly opportunities are distributed and how fairly people are rewarded. Stated in another way, the problem is not the elite, the problem is how the elite is made.
- pjc50 5y ago
  Exactly. So much politics is done by swearword association; "elite", "marxist", "fascist", "corporate", etc. Just stick the label on some non-specified group of bad people.
fallingknife 5y ago
But a lot of the world's problems are caused by those "domain expert" type of elites, because, in many countries, including the US, they run the government. Anthony Fauci, for example is probably not particularly wealthy, but has had more power over citizens in the US over the last year than any billionaire. Not that some man on the street could do a better job, but you have to expect that people are going to be pissed at the people making the decisions when things go wrong.
- epgui 5y ago
  Are you suggesting that Dr Fauci does not deserve to have his position, or that somehow the accountability mechanisms that govern his office are unjust? I would submit that Dr Fauci typically holds very little power, and that he has had an unusual amount of influence lately because there’s a pandemic.

by epgui 5y ago

MattGaiser 5y ago

There was an earlier comment on a different discussion where someone referred to "elites" as basically anyone who worked for the government or had a bachelors degree. It is a lazy way to get people to agree with your argument when they wouldn't if you were forced to define who you precisely mean.

epgui 5y ago
Indeed, and it’s also terribly counter-productive in that it borders on anti-intellectualism. If you care about regular folks having a good life and having good opportunities, if you want the American dream (work hard and get rewarded) to be true, then a big part of that requires “vertical mobility”, and that means that you should want regular people to be able to achieve “elite status”. It’s not the existence of elites that is the problem, it’s how fairly opportunities are distributed and how fairly people are rewarded. Stated in another way, the problem is not the elite, the problem is how the elite is made.
pjc50 5y ago
Exactly. So much politics is done by swearword association; "elite", "marxist", "fascist", "corporate", etc. Just stick the label on some non-specified group of bad people.

fallingknife 5y ago

But a lot of the world's problems are caused by those "domain expert" type of elites, because, in many countries, including the US, they run the government. Anthony Fauci, for example is probably not particularly wealthy, but has had more power over citizens in the US over the last year than any billionaire. Not that some man on the street could do a better job, but you have to expect that people are going to be pissed at the people making the decisions when things go wrong.

epgui 5y ago
Are you suggesting that Dr Fauci does not deserve to have his position, or that somehow the accountability mechanisms that govern his office are unjust? I would submit that Dr Fauci typically holds very little power, and that he has had an unusual amount of influence lately because there’s a pandemic.