4 ms·

This is a bizarre argument. The $15/h wage in your example put four people out of work (How many end up on the dole? How much new taxation will be required to s

This is a bizarre argument. The $15/h wage in your example put four people out of work (How many end up on the dole? How much new taxation will be required to support them?) and potentially squashed other economic activity by closing the shops. You're arguing for the destruction of economic activity in the name of reducing the 'wasteful use of resources', which is just silly. You're just making it harder for these folks to support themselves, while burdening others with the need to support them.

hirako2000 5y ago
Good point. it doesn't imply though that the 4am worker would be left doing nothing. He could well be providing another service less wastful, day time, for 8 dollars per hour or more, or less. Unless or course those who want to buy stuff at the gas station at any hour of the night would not trade that convenience for any other service they aren't getting yet.
- indymike 5y ago
  > Good point. it doesn't imply though that the 4am worker would be left doing nothing. This assumes the worker isn't doing something valuable during the day. I worked some night shifts to pay for college. > day time, for 8 dollars per hour or more, I got paid more for the night shift than the workers on the day shift. Fewer people wanted to be awake at 3:30AM. Even fewer wanted to work.
  - iso1210 5y ago
    > This assumes the worker isn't doing something valuable during the day. I worked some night shifts to pay for college. Well yes, people need to sleep. You can sleep during the day, or at night, but you still need to sleep at some point. If a student is burning their energy working overnight, they aren't getting the most out of college, that's a waste of resources in a given system.
    - indymike 5y ago
      > If a student is burning their energy working overnight, they aren't getting the most out of college, that's a waste of resources in a given system. Being debt free after leaving college was worth the lost sleep.
      - iso1210 5y ago
        You're looking at it from an individual perspective rather than treating mankind as a system to optimise. It would be better as a whole for you to have completed the course either faster or better, and progress onto more productive things. Reality of course is that you can't optimize a global society of 7 billion individual thinking people with different abilities, wants, hopes, needs, indeed you can't even come up with a measure of what you are trying to optimize, but in my view mankind should have eliminating non-producive work as a goal. I've just filled in forms to register at the local GP surgery. I had to fill them in on paper, putting name and address multiple times on different forms, this will all be transcribed by one of the receptionists into a computer. This is waste. My health care system is fairly good with eliminating waste (compared with say the US system), but it's something that should be optimised -- it would have been more efficient for both me and the data entry person if I could have just typed in the data into an online form (complete with autofill), rather than this archaic method from the 1980s. Having inefficient systems is bad. On the London Underground 20 years ago you had to queue up at a ticket office or machine to buy a ticket. Now you just walk through the barrier with your phone. 100 years ago you would tell someone behind a counter what you wanted and wait around while he went and got it, 50 years ago you walked through the shop and did that yourself, and now with some stores you scan simply pick up what you want and walk out without even paying. The total work done reduces each time, and that's a net win for the species. Reducing tedious unfulfilling work should be the goal, and a higher minimum wage incentivises that.
        ThePadawan 5y ago
        Funny aside: I 100% agree with you on the GP thing, but I find it hilarious how you hope to even move away from paper entry. Here in Switzerland, it still seems to be a 50/50 if you get to fill out a form, or simply hand the receptionist your insurance card which has your national insurance ID on a Magstripe. Usually, all they ask then is "Is your address at Example St still current?"
- iso1210 5y ago
  Perhaps they should be paying more for the convenience then
  - ThePadawan 5y ago
    Right? I'm writing this from Switzerland, which has this weird relationship of being quite like the US, but also quite unlike the US. In this case, opening hours of everything are strictly regulated. Only some shops in (or next to) train stations and airports are allowed to remain open on Sundays and holidays, on a case-by-case basis. But because there's also legislation requiring large hourly salary multipliers for employees working on those days, their products can also be expensive as balls. (Seeing as these are also the shops tourists see most often, this is where the "$4 for a can of coke???" encounters originate)
structural 5y ago
It's not at all a bizarre argument in a labor shortage. Exactly what you should expect to happen is that low-value economic activity gets replaced by higher-value economic activity!
Ekaros 5y ago
I dunno, sounds like employing one person that is almost 4 times as productive for less than half a cost would be overall good move. Specially when the 4 couldn't properly pay their living costs. Issue really is that we can't find different work for the 3 anymore...
- marcusverus 5y ago
  > I dunno, sounds like employing one person that is almost 4 times as productive for less than half a cost would be overall good move. Why assume that the worker is four times as productive? Even if the same number of transactions occur because everyone goes to the one open shop, we've still destroyed 64K of GDP by canning four employees. > Specially when the 4 couldn't properly pay their living costs. The 4 people working for $8/hour were contributing 64K per year to paying their living costs. By destroying their jobs have you made them better able to properly pay their living costs? Of course not, you've merely transferred the cost of supporting them to some other poor schmuck. Reducing economic activity and raising taxes is not a recipe for increased prosperity.

hirako2000 5y ago

Good point. it doesn't imply though that the 4am worker would be left doing nothing. He could well be providing another service less wastful, day time, for 8 dollars per hour or more, or less. Unless or course those who want to buy stuff at the gas station at any hour of the night would not trade that convenience for any other service they aren't getting yet.

indymike 5y ago
> Good point. it doesn't imply though that the 4am worker would be left doing nothing. This assumes the worker isn't doing something valuable during the day. I worked some night shifts to pay for college. > day time, for 8 dollars per hour or more, I got paid more for the night shift than the workers on the day shift. Fewer people wanted to be awake at 3:30AM. Even fewer wanted to work.
- iso1210 5y ago
  > This assumes the worker isn't doing something valuable during the day. I worked some night shifts to pay for college. Well yes, people need to sleep. You can sleep during the day, or at night, but you still need to sleep at some point. If a student is burning their energy working overnight, they aren't getting the most out of college, that's a waste of resources in a given system.
  - indymike 5y ago
    > If a student is burning their energy working overnight, they aren't getting the most out of college, that's a waste of resources in a given system. Being debt free after leaving college was worth the lost sleep.
    - iso1210 5y ago
      You're looking at it from an individual perspective rather than treating mankind as a system to optimise. It would be better as a whole for you to have completed the course either faster or better, and progress onto more productive things. Reality of course is that you can't optimize a global society of 7 billion individual thinking people with different abilities, wants, hopes, needs, indeed you can't even come up with a measure of what you are trying to optimize, but in my view mankind should have eliminating non-producive work as a goal. I've just filled in forms to register at the local GP surgery. I had to fill them in on paper, putting name and address multiple times on different forms, this will all be transcribed by one of the receptionists into a computer. This is waste. My health care system is fairly good with eliminating waste (compared with say the US system), but it's something that should be optimised -- it would have been more efficient for both me and the data entry person if I could have just typed in the data into an online form (complete with autofill), rather than this archaic method from the 1980s. Having inefficient systems is bad. On the London Underground 20 years ago you had to queue up at a ticket office or machine to buy a ticket. Now you just walk through the barrier with your phone. 100 years ago you would tell someone behind a counter what you wanted and wait around while he went and got it, 50 years ago you walked through the shop and did that yourself, and now with some stores you scan simply pick up what you want and walk out without even paying. The total work done reduces each time, and that's a net win for the species. Reducing tedious unfulfilling work should be the goal, and a higher minimum wage incentivises that.
      - ThePadawan 5y ago
        Funny aside: I 100% agree with you on the GP thing, but I find it hilarious how you hope to even move away from paper entry. Here in Switzerland, it still seems to be a 50/50 if you get to fill out a form, or simply hand the receptionist your insurance card which has your national insurance ID on a Magstripe. Usually, all they ask then is "Is your address at Example St still current?"
iso1210 5y ago
Perhaps they should be paying more for the convenience then
- ThePadawan 5y ago
  Right? I'm writing this from Switzerland, which has this weird relationship of being quite like the US, but also quite unlike the US. In this case, opening hours of everything are strictly regulated. Only some shops in (or next to) train stations and airports are allowed to remain open on Sundays and holidays, on a case-by-case basis. But because there's also legislation requiring large hourly salary multipliers for employees working on those days, their products can also be expensive as balls. (Seeing as these are also the shops tourists see most often, this is where the "$4 for a can of coke???" encounters originate)

structural 5y ago

It's not at all a bizarre argument in a labor shortage. Exactly what you should expect to happen is that low-value economic activity gets replaced by higher-value economic activity!

Ekaros 5y ago

I dunno, sounds like employing one person that is almost 4 times as productive for less than half a cost would be overall good move. Specially when the 4 couldn't properly pay their living costs. Issue really is that we can't find different work for the 3 anymore...

marcusverus 5y ago
> I dunno, sounds like employing one person that is almost 4 times as productive for less than half a cost would be overall good move. Why assume that the worker is four times as productive? Even if the same number of transactions occur because everyone goes to the one open shop, we've still destroyed 64K of GDP by canning four employees. > Specially when the 4 couldn't properly pay their living costs. The 4 people working for $8/hour were contributing 64K per year to paying their living costs. By destroying their jobs have you made them better able to properly pay their living costs? Of course not, you've merely transferred the cost of supporting them to some other poor schmuck. Reducing economic activity and raising taxes is not a recipe for increased prosperity.