3 ms·

Thanks for a well reasoned response. I too am always blown away at the comments here when it comes to labor. I think the reality is that most people making thes

Thanks for a well reasoned response. I too am always blown away at the comments here when it comes to labor. I think the reality is that most people making these comments didn’t have to build themselves up to where they are, and they have sympathy toward people having to do “demeaning work”, having never done it themselves. I’ve scrubbed bathrooms, loaded trucks, pumped gas, and served people and enjoyed every single one despite them being low skill, entry level jobs. Did I expect a job that anyone else could do to compete for me with a high salary? No way. I wanted a higher salary so I hustled on the side and got a degree in a field that paid more. Some of the people I worked with did the same, some didn’t. That’s the way it goes. I think the people complaining mostly feel guilty about straight to college and a high paying job tract. Think of it as the jobs equivalent of white guilt.

crazydoggers 5y ago
I definitely think it’s interesting that those arguing these things tend not to be the ones who have worked those jobs, instead avoiding them. I think that tells you something right there. It feels like an era of moral outrage outweighing common sense. And I think social media bears a very large responsibility. Facebook, Twitter etc is creating a generation involved in spending too much time online becoming angry and not enough time actually going outside and changing the world.
mindslight 5y ago
I don't have a problem with jobs doing crappy things (obviously, they have to get done). As far as manual labor goes, I tend to do things myself rather than hiring someone. What I do have a problem with (and what people mean when they say "crappy jobs") is the terrible compensation and lack of worker power. The people doing these jobs generally don't complain (they know their situation sucks), and when they do are ignored (everyone else knows their situation sucks). So what stands out in your mind is when someone who seems to have no vested interest in crappy jobs complains about crappy jobs. People who haven't been forced into living hand to mouth have not internalized the rules of the system as hard. We're therefore more able to envision changing the system's workings, rather than having fully resigned ourselves to living within its rules in spite of its problems. You worked some crappy jobs, and then succeeded out of them. So you believe you have found a template of success. But the problem is that while it worked for you, it cannot scale to work for everybody. And not because most people are too dumb/lazy/whatever to get ahead, but rather because the system ranks everyone against each other, and then only allows for a few winners - economic position in a debt-based economy is zero sum. Meanwhile, I fully recognize that in order to have my position as being relatively economically comfortable, there are other people out there who cannot be. So rather than "guilt", which implies some sort of irrational emotional state, it is actually continuing to have concern for the people stuck below me in the system that I am forced to help maintain.
- anonfornoreason 5y ago
  Thanks, I really enjoyed reading your response. I think there are huge wins to be had in compensation and work environment, without painting all low skilled jobs as demeaning, or without saying the equivalent of "they should make more money because scrubbing toilets sucks". I could be wrong, but I think there are a bunch of snap opinions that come from the guilt borne by caring, but privileged people. I think there's also a large disconnect between the "puritanical" work ethic opinion holders, and the "free us from the tyranny of work" opinion holders. I love work, I always have. This even manifests into a weird love of digging literal holes in the ground with a shovel, something about the effort expended to see a job done really gives me a feeling of accomplishment, so it's no surprise that it resonates with me.
odessacubbage 5y ago
ime these jobs largely are not demeaning in of themselves, they end up that way because of the conditions and management that optimizes by taking advantage of a workforce that they consider expendable and cost-cutting usually comes at the expense of dignity. getting an expletive-filled call from your boss threatening to fire you if you don't come in during previously scheduled time off [because they just fired the person who was supposed to take that shift] is the kind of experience that quickly turns an okay job into a miserable one.

crazydoggers 5y ago

I definitely think it’s interesting that those arguing these things tend not to be the ones who have worked those jobs, instead avoiding them. I think that tells you something right there. It feels like an era of moral outrage outweighing common sense. And I think social media bears a very large responsibility. Facebook, Twitter etc is creating a generation involved in spending too much time online becoming angry and not enough time actually going outside and changing the world.

mindslight 5y ago

I don't have a problem with jobs doing crappy things (obviously, they have to get done). As far as manual labor goes, I tend to do things myself rather than hiring someone. What I do have a problem with (and what people mean when they say "crappy jobs") is the terrible compensation and lack of worker power. The people doing these jobs generally don't complain (they know their situation sucks), and when they do are ignored (everyone else knows their situation sucks). So what stands out in your mind is when someone who seems to have no vested interest in crappy jobs complains about crappy jobs. People who haven't been forced into living hand to mouth have not internalized the rules of the system as hard. We're therefore more able to envision changing the system's workings, rather than having fully resigned ourselves to living within its rules in spite of its problems. You worked some crappy jobs, and then succeeded out of them. So you believe you have found a template of success. But the problem is that while it worked for you, it cannot scale to work for everybody. And not because most people are too dumb/lazy/whatever to get ahead, but rather because the system ranks everyone against each other, and then only allows for a few winners - economic position in a debt-based economy is zero sum. Meanwhile, I fully recognize that in order to have my position as being relatively economically comfortable, there are other people out there who cannot be. So rather than "guilt", which implies some sort of irrational emotional state, it is actually continuing to have concern for the people stuck below me in the system that I am forced to help maintain.

anonfornoreason 5y ago
Thanks, I really enjoyed reading your response. I think there are huge wins to be had in compensation and work environment, without painting all low skilled jobs as demeaning, or without saying the equivalent of "they should make more money because scrubbing toilets sucks". I could be wrong, but I think there are a bunch of snap opinions that come from the guilt borne by caring, but privileged people. I think there's also a large disconnect between the "puritanical" work ethic opinion holders, and the "free us from the tyranny of work" opinion holders. I love work, I always have. This even manifests into a weird love of digging literal holes in the ground with a shovel, something about the effort expended to see a job done really gives me a feeling of accomplishment, so it's no surprise that it resonates with me.

odessacubbage 5y ago

ime these jobs largely are not demeaning in of themselves, they end up that way because of the conditions and management that optimizes by taking advantage of a workforce that they consider expendable and cost-cutting usually comes at the expense of dignity. getting an expletive-filled call from your boss threatening to fire you if you don't come in during previously scheduled time off [because they just fired the person who was supposed to take that shift] is the kind of experience that quickly turns an okay job into a miserable one.