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Ignoring the ad hominem attacks, I appreciate your attempt to clarify the situation. However, you are factually wrong about Oracle's position, because they actu

Ignoring the ad hominem attacks, I appreciate your attempt to clarify the situation. However, you are factually wrong about Oracle's position, because they actually offer two different builds of Java - one that is GPL'd (with classpath exception) and one that is commercial[1]. I take the first claim seriously because it's downloadable as a tar.gz file without any license acceptance. However "GPL" is another thing that causes worry among the C-levels (and myself). A superficial reading might be that Oracle's JDK does not come with the GPL encumbrance. But this also raises the question: what differs between the various JDK builds? And again, what is the legal status of "OpenJDK" particularly WRT Oracle? I personally don't think these are stupid or trivial questions. Nor do I think the answers are obvious. Nor are they nonsense FUD. I am certainly NOT an Oracle partisan - I saw first hand what they did with Sun. 1 - https://jdk.java.net/17/ https://jdk.java.net/17/

papercrane 5y ago
> A superficial reading might be that Oracle's JDK does not come with the GPL encumbrance. This is the whole point of the "classpath exception". You can run, build and distribute Java programs under any license you choose. > But this also raises the question: what differs between the various JDK builds? Very little typically. Some like RedHat or Amazon enable extra options, like the Shenandoah GC. The big difference is who you contact for support. > what is the legal status of "OpenJDK" particularly WRT Oracle? I'm not sure what this question even means, but frankly given Microsoft, IBM and Amazon are all building and distributing their own builds of OpenJDK I don't think there are any significant legal issues, these are all companies with teams of lawyers on retainer.
- javajosh 5y ago
  How about this: what is "OpenJDK"? It used to be an independent open-source clone of the Sun-then-Oracle implementation of the JVM/JLS/JSR specs under a liberal license. Now it seems to mean something different - like a working group that manages the specs, but no longer has a build of it's own. By convention, it seems that Oracle's "OpenJDK build" is the "default" OpenJDK build, but Oracle also provides a "commercial build", which is also, confusingly, an implementation of "OpenJDK". Meanwhile other vendors have "OpenJDK" builds: Amazon (corretto), Red Hat, etc. This means that they offer binaries that implement the OpenJDK specs. My mental model is currecntly: So there's a spec and an implementation, OpenJDK can refer to both, and a vendor can have multiple implementations of OpenJDK (spec), and some of impls can be closed/commercial, as in the case of Oracle (and maybe Red Hat?).
  - papercrane 5y ago
    OpenJDK was never an independent clone. OpenJDK was started by Sun and was all of the JVM code they could relicense. Contributions to it were done either by Sun themselves, or by companies and individuals that signed a contributor agreement. This has continued under Oracle. Notably this includes Redhat, IBM, Microsoft, Azul, Apple and SAP. Originally the code didn't have enough components to produce a useful JVM, and Redhat put a lot of effort into producing builds that integrated with IcedTea to produce a fully Free Software JVM. Now though the OpenJDK has all of the components needed to produce a JVM. OpenJDK is Oracle's reference implementation of Java, and provides a GPL+Classpath exception licensed build on their website. Additionally, Oracle provides a build a commercially supported build from their website. The commercial builds from Oracle have included other additions, but over the years the amount of closed sourced add-ons has decreased. Other vendors provide builds of the OpenJDK, most include additional code, although for the most part the changes are minimal. All of these builds are based on the OpenJDK, and adhere to the GPL+Classpath exception. There is also Azul Platform Prime/Zing. Which is there own JVM with an LLVM-based JIT, I'm not sure if they're using any OpenJDK code, but if so I assume they have a commercial agreement with Oracle.
  - twic 5y ago
    > what is "OpenJDK"? It is an open source project, comprising a codebase, a set of contributors, and various mailing lists, processes, and so on, just like any other open source project. The codebase is a continuation of the original Sun (later Oracle) JDK, now licensed under GPL 2 [1], with a linking exception that makes it fairly similar to the LGPL [2]. The contributors are mostly employees of big companies, with Oracle having by far the largest share. The OpenJDK project releases source code, but does not itself distribute binary builds. In this respect, it is like numerous other open source projects, such as GNU coreutils. Binary builds are made and distributed by operating system distributors (Red Hat, Debian, FreeBSD, etc), and also by various independent groups. As usual, each distributor may or may not add its own patches before building, and may or may not contribute these upstream. Eclipse Adoptium (formerly known as AdoptOpenJDK) [1] does not apply significant proprietary patches (just branding stuff), so it's a good place to get a plain vanilla OpenJDK build. Amazon's Corretto [4] in principle could contain whatever patches Amazon thinks are cool, but in practice usually just has a few backported bugfixes [5]. Azul's Core (formerly known as Zulu) has a bunch of patches (i couldn't find a list), and an option of commercial support) [6]. Oracle have a couple of builds, but you can ignore them. There are also builds from SAP, Bellsoft, and maybe others, but i have never really looked into them. Most people i know just use the AdoptOpenJDK / Adoptium builds, or whatever their distro gives them. EDIT: I got the Adoptium thing slightly wrong. AdoptOpenJDK made builds; those builds are now called Eclipse Temurin. Eclipse Adoptium is some sort of 'marketplace' where different builds are validated and made available. To me, this sounds like one of those Apache grand ideas that won't go anywhere, but we'll see. [1] https://github.com/openjdk/jdk/blob/master/LICENSE https://github.com/openjdk/jdk/blob/master/LICENSE [2] https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/1410/what-is-the-difference-between-gpl-classpath-exception-vs-lgpl https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/1410/what-is-... [3] https://adoptium.net/releases.html https://adoptium.net/releases.html [4] https://aws.amazon.com/corretto/ https://aws.amazon.com/corretto/ [5] https://docs.aws.amazon.com/corretto/latest/corretto-11-ug/patches.html https://docs.aws.amazon.com/corretto/latest/corretto-11-ug/p... [6] https://www.azul.com/products/core/ https://www.azul.com/products/core/

papercrane 5y ago

> A superficial reading might be that Oracle's JDK does not come with the GPL encumbrance. This is the whole point of the "classpath exception". You can run, build and distribute Java programs under any license you choose. > But this also raises the question: what differs between the various JDK builds? Very little typically. Some like RedHat or Amazon enable extra options, like the Shenandoah GC. The big difference is who you contact for support. > what is the legal status of "OpenJDK" particularly WRT Oracle? I'm not sure what this question even means, but frankly given Microsoft, IBM and Amazon are all building and distributing their own builds of OpenJDK I don't think there are any significant legal issues, these are all companies with teams of lawyers on retainer.

javajosh 5y ago
How about this: what is "OpenJDK"? It used to be an independent open-source clone of the Sun-then-Oracle implementation of the JVM/JLS/JSR specs under a liberal license. Now it seems to mean something different - like a working group that manages the specs, but no longer has a build of it's own. By convention, it seems that Oracle's "OpenJDK build" is the "default" OpenJDK build, but Oracle also provides a "commercial build", which is also, confusingly, an implementation of "OpenJDK". Meanwhile other vendors have "OpenJDK" builds: Amazon (corretto), Red Hat, etc. This means that they offer binaries that implement the OpenJDK specs. My mental model is currecntly: So there's a spec and an implementation, OpenJDK can refer to both, and a vendor can have multiple implementations of OpenJDK (spec), and some of impls can be closed/commercial, as in the case of Oracle (and maybe Red Hat?).
- papercrane 5y ago
  OpenJDK was never an independent clone. OpenJDK was started by Sun and was all of the JVM code they could relicense. Contributions to it were done either by Sun themselves, or by companies and individuals that signed a contributor agreement. This has continued under Oracle. Notably this includes Redhat, IBM, Microsoft, Azul, Apple and SAP. Originally the code didn't have enough components to produce a useful JVM, and Redhat put a lot of effort into producing builds that integrated with IcedTea to produce a fully Free Software JVM. Now though the OpenJDK has all of the components needed to produce a JVM. OpenJDK is Oracle's reference implementation of Java, and provides a GPL+Classpath exception licensed build on their website. Additionally, Oracle provides a build a commercially supported build from their website. The commercial builds from Oracle have included other additions, but over the years the amount of closed sourced add-ons has decreased. Other vendors provide builds of the OpenJDK, most include additional code, although for the most part the changes are minimal. All of these builds are based on the OpenJDK, and adhere to the GPL+Classpath exception. There is also Azul Platform Prime/Zing. Which is there own JVM with an LLVM-based JIT, I'm not sure if they're using any OpenJDK code, but if so I assume they have a commercial agreement with Oracle.
- twic 5y ago
  > what is "OpenJDK"? It is an open source project, comprising a codebase, a set of contributors, and various mailing lists, processes, and so on, just like any other open source project. The codebase is a continuation of the original Sun (later Oracle) JDK, now licensed under GPL 2 [1], with a linking exception that makes it fairly similar to the LGPL [2]. The contributors are mostly employees of big companies, with Oracle having by far the largest share. The OpenJDK project releases source code, but does not itself distribute binary builds. In this respect, it is like numerous other open source projects, such as GNU coreutils. Binary builds are made and distributed by operating system distributors (Red Hat, Debian, FreeBSD, etc), and also by various independent groups. As usual, each distributor may or may not add its own patches before building, and may or may not contribute these upstream. Eclipse Adoptium (formerly known as AdoptOpenJDK) [1] does not apply significant proprietary patches (just branding stuff), so it's a good place to get a plain vanilla OpenJDK build. Amazon's Corretto [4] in principle could contain whatever patches Amazon thinks are cool, but in practice usually just has a few backported bugfixes [5]. Azul's Core (formerly known as Zulu) has a bunch of patches (i couldn't find a list), and an option of commercial support) [6]. Oracle have a couple of builds, but you can ignore them. There are also builds from SAP, Bellsoft, and maybe others, but i have never really looked into them. Most people i know just use the AdoptOpenJDK / Adoptium builds, or whatever their distro gives them. EDIT: I got the Adoptium thing slightly wrong. AdoptOpenJDK made builds; those builds are now called Eclipse Temurin. Eclipse Adoptium is some sort of 'marketplace' where different builds are validated and made available. To me, this sounds like one of those Apache grand ideas that won't go anywhere, but we'll see. [1] https://github.com/openjdk/jdk/blob/master/LICENSE https://github.com/openjdk/jdk/blob/master/LICENSE [2] https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/1410/what-is-the-difference-between-gpl-classpath-exception-vs-lgpl https://opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/1410/what-is-... [3] https://adoptium.net/releases.html https://adoptium.net/releases.html [4] https://aws.amazon.com/corretto/ https://aws.amazon.com/corretto/ [5] https://docs.aws.amazon.com/corretto/latest/corretto-11-ug/patches.html https://docs.aws.amazon.com/corretto/latest/corretto-11-ug/p... [6] https://www.azul.com/products/core/ https://www.azul.com/products/core/