4 ms·

Im not the one moralizing. In fact I’m doing the opposite. Scrubbing toilets pays less because fewer people can write software. Any human being can scrub a toi

Im not the one moralizing. In fact I’m doing the opposite. Scrubbing toilets pays less because fewer people can write software. Any human being can scrub a toilet. That’s what unskilled labor means. I have done menial jobs and taken pride in every one. The vast majority of your “managerial class” have done the same. The difference is they never stopped applying themselves and worked tooth and nail to get where they are. The idea of some huge protected aristocracy in the US is a convenient myth. It makes up less than 1%. The rest of us work and worked our asses off. So please stop covering laziness with moralizing. The rest of us are working and tired of the entitlement from the parasites. Edit: One only needs to look at your words. “Puppet masters”, “preisthood”, “debt based economy”, etc. None of it jibes with reality. I suggest perhaps examining what psychologist would call your external locus of control, it won’t serve you well in life. Taking a class in economics and reading up on labor history on the US would also be helpful.

mindslight 5y ago
> So please stop covering laziness with moralizing. The rest of us are working and tired of the entitlement from the parasites. What is your second sentence here, apart from pure moralizing? > Scrubbing toilets pays less because fewer people can write software Sure, this is the obvious dogma so I didn't repeat it. But it only applies within certain assumptions - namely that unskilled labor can be arbitraged across borders, and that the people who aren't capable of writing software still need to bid against those who can to make a comparable amount of income to pay as rent. As I said, the contextless narrative is quite convenient if you're not subject to the pointy end of the market mechanism. But when we're critiquing the system, we need to examine its assumptions. > The idea of some huge protected aristocracy in the US is a convenient myth I never said there was one. By my analysis, our oppression is quite democratic - hence the lower-middle class goal of buying into real estate / stonks / etc and thereby becoming beneficiaries of the problem. While this is a common path to success under the current system, that doesn't mean that it is possible for everyone to actually take it. In a debt-based economy, economic positioning is intrinsically zero-sum - by succeeding in moving up the ladder, others must be stuck below you. And the economic priesthood has driven us more and more into debt because it puts the economy under centralized direction. I'd wager this is the true source of your discontent, yet rather than looking at the puppetmasters pulling the abstract strings that define the large-scale trends, you're doing the easy thing of blaming those closest to your position. Since we're responding in edits: > One only needs to look at your words. “Puppet masters”, “preisthood”, “debt based economy”, etc. None of it jibes with reality. Puppet masters is hyperbolic, but priesthood is simply a call back to an older term for the same role - setting and promulgating societal policy while pretending to be neutral. And "debt based economy" is straightforwardly factual - add up your monthly budget and look at the proportion that goes to your actual survival (food, utilities, maintenance, depreciation), versus how much goes to servicing debt streams (mortgage and property taxes). We're a debt based society - the poorest members don't have small positive balances but rather negative balances, and are thus forced to work to pay their economic rent "or else". > I suggest perhaps examining what psychologist would call your external locus of control, it won’t serve you well in life When describing how the system works, what else would I use besides an external locus of control? I obviously don't control the economy! I'm on the financial treadmill the same as everyone else, and take my own actions based on what I can change (internal locus of control). But touting those actions as if they're a solution rather than mere mitigations is falling into the trap of assuming the system can only be this way. Economically, I'm in the libertarian-Austrian camp rather than progressive-MMT/UBI. It's my experience that when people say to "study economics", they really just mean stop questioning the assumptions of the Keynesian/post-Bretton-Woods regime of overwhelming monetary inflation.
anonfornoreason 5y ago
Thanks for a well reasoned response. I too am always blown away at the comments here when it comes to labor. I think the reality is that most people making these comments didn’t have to build themselves up to where they are, and they have sympathy toward people having to do “demeaning work”, having never done it themselves. I’ve scrubbed bathrooms, loaded trucks, pumped gas, and served people and enjoyed every single one despite them being low skill, entry level jobs. Did I expect a job that anyone else could do to compete for me with a high salary? No way. I wanted a higher salary so I hustled on the side and got a degree in a field that paid more. Some of the people I worked with did the same, some didn’t. That’s the way it goes. I think the people complaining mostly feel guilty about straight to college and a high paying job tract. Think of it as the jobs equivalent of white guilt.
- crazydoggers 5y ago
  I definitely think it’s interesting that those arguing these things tend not to be the ones who have worked those jobs, instead avoiding them. I think that tells you something right there. It feels like an era of moral outrage outweighing common sense. And I think social media bears a very large responsibility. Facebook, Twitter etc is creating a generation involved in spending too much time online becoming angry and not enough time actually going outside and changing the world.
- mindslight 5y ago
  I don't have a problem with jobs doing crappy things (obviously, they have to get done). As far as manual labor goes, I tend to do things myself rather than hiring someone. What I do have a problem with (and what people mean when they say "crappy jobs") is the terrible compensation and lack of worker power. The people doing these jobs generally don't complain (they know their situation sucks), and when they do are ignored (everyone else knows their situation sucks). So what stands out in your mind is when someone who seems to have no vested interest in crappy jobs complains about crappy jobs. People who haven't been forced into living hand to mouth have not internalized the rules of the system as hard. We're therefore more able to envision changing the system's workings, rather than having fully resigned ourselves to living within its rules in spite of its problems. You worked some crappy jobs, and then succeeded out of them. So you believe you have found a template of success. But the problem is that while it worked for you, it cannot scale to work for everybody. And not because most people are too dumb/lazy/whatever to get ahead, but rather because the system ranks everyone against each other, and then only allows for a few winners - economic position in a debt-based economy is zero sum. Meanwhile, I fully recognize that in order to have my position as being relatively economically comfortable, there are other people out there who cannot be. So rather than "guilt", which implies some sort of irrational emotional state, it is actually continuing to have concern for the people stuck below me in the system that I am forced to help maintain.
gaze 5y ago
it's not that much harder to write software than it is to clean a toilet -- and it's WAY harder being a roofer than writing software. There is little to no coupling between skill, difficulty, and pay.
- crazydoggers 5y ago
  That is patently absurd… you literally just said it’s as easy to clean a toilet as write software. Is it as easy as doing particle physics? How about brain surgery? Is there a line? If they’re all so easy, what is keeping all these would be software engineers and brain surgeons from getting better jobs? Some sort of conspiracy?? This is the distorted reality I’m talking about.
  - odessacubbage 5y ago
    having done both, i've gotta say being a knowledge worker who gets to freelance in my pjs is way easier than doing manual labor out in the snow for 9 hours a day or doing roofing jobs under the hot sun. to be sure i had to learn way more stuff to do what i do now but there is no comparison when it comes to the actual day-to-day labor.
    - mbrodersen 5y ago
      If that is true then why are companies willing to pay a reasonably good software developer a $100k salary instead of just hiring a cheaper roofer instead? It kinda should be really obvious but in case it isn’t: a roofer can’t do the job.
      - gaze 5y ago
        Spoken like someone who has never done hard labor
        crazydoggers 5y ago
        Spoken like someone with no knowledge of the other person, who’s arguments are based primarily on ad hominem, and who seems to be wed to a socialist workers agenda where every person should be compensated equally for any work. I have done many types of jobs, including physical labor. I’m way more tired, and usually much more stressed out, after doing what you call “easy” jobs. Often the hard labor makes you feel healthier.

mindslight 5y ago

> So please stop covering laziness with moralizing. The rest of us are working and tired of the entitlement from the parasites. What is your second sentence here, apart from pure moralizing? > Scrubbing toilets pays less because fewer people can write software Sure, this is the obvious dogma so I didn't repeat it. But it only applies within certain assumptions - namely that unskilled labor can be arbitraged across borders, and that the people who aren't capable of writing software still need to bid against those who can to make a comparable amount of income to pay as rent. As I said, the contextless narrative is quite convenient if you're not subject to the pointy end of the market mechanism. But when we're critiquing the system, we need to examine its assumptions. > The idea of some huge protected aristocracy in the US is a convenient myth I never said there was one. By my analysis, our oppression is quite democratic - hence the lower-middle class goal of buying into real estate / stonks / etc and thereby becoming beneficiaries of the problem. While this is a common path to success under the current system, that doesn't mean that it is possible for everyone to actually take it. In a debt-based economy, economic positioning is intrinsically zero-sum - by succeeding in moving up the ladder, others must be stuck below you. And the economic priesthood has driven us more and more into debt because it puts the economy under centralized direction. I'd wager this is the true source of your discontent, yet rather than looking at the puppetmasters pulling the abstract strings that define the large-scale trends, you're doing the easy thing of blaming those closest to your position. Since we're responding in edits: > One only needs to look at your words. “Puppet masters”, “preisthood”, “debt based economy”, etc. None of it jibes with reality. Puppet masters is hyperbolic, but priesthood is simply a call back to an older term for the same role - setting and promulgating societal policy while pretending to be neutral. And "debt based economy" is straightforwardly factual - add up your monthly budget and look at the proportion that goes to your actual survival (food, utilities, maintenance, depreciation), versus how much goes to servicing debt streams (mortgage and property taxes). We're a debt based society - the poorest members don't have small positive balances but rather negative balances, and are thus forced to work to pay their economic rent "or else". > I suggest perhaps examining what psychologist would call your external locus of control, it won’t serve you well in life When describing how the system works, what else would I use besides an external locus of control? I obviously don't control the economy! I'm on the financial treadmill the same as everyone else, and take my own actions based on what I can change (internal locus of control). But touting those actions as if they're a solution rather than mere mitigations is falling into the trap of assuming the system can only be this way. Economically, I'm in the libertarian-Austrian camp rather than progressive-MMT/UBI. It's my experience that when people say to "study economics", they really just mean stop questioning the assumptions of the Keynesian/post-Bretton-Woods regime of overwhelming monetary inflation.

anonfornoreason 5y ago

Thanks for a well reasoned response. I too am always blown away at the comments here when it comes to labor. I think the reality is that most people making these comments didn’t have to build themselves up to where they are, and they have sympathy toward people having to do “demeaning work”, having never done it themselves. I’ve scrubbed bathrooms, loaded trucks, pumped gas, and served people and enjoyed every single one despite them being low skill, entry level jobs. Did I expect a job that anyone else could do to compete for me with a high salary? No way. I wanted a higher salary so I hustled on the side and got a degree in a field that paid more. Some of the people I worked with did the same, some didn’t. That’s the way it goes. I think the people complaining mostly feel guilty about straight to college and a high paying job tract. Think of it as the jobs equivalent of white guilt.

crazydoggers 5y ago
I definitely think it’s interesting that those arguing these things tend not to be the ones who have worked those jobs, instead avoiding them. I think that tells you something right there. It feels like an era of moral outrage outweighing common sense. And I think social media bears a very large responsibility. Facebook, Twitter etc is creating a generation involved in spending too much time online becoming angry and not enough time actually going outside and changing the world.
mindslight 5y ago
I don't have a problem with jobs doing crappy things (obviously, they have to get done). As far as manual labor goes, I tend to do things myself rather than hiring someone. What I do have a problem with (and what people mean when they say "crappy jobs") is the terrible compensation and lack of worker power. The people doing these jobs generally don't complain (they know their situation sucks), and when they do are ignored (everyone else knows their situation sucks). So what stands out in your mind is when someone who seems to have no vested interest in crappy jobs complains about crappy jobs. People who haven't been forced into living hand to mouth have not internalized the rules of the system as hard. We're therefore more able to envision changing the system's workings, rather than having fully resigned ourselves to living within its rules in spite of its problems. You worked some crappy jobs, and then succeeded out of them. So you believe you have found a template of success. But the problem is that while it worked for you, it cannot scale to work for everybody. And not because most people are too dumb/lazy/whatever to get ahead, but rather because the system ranks everyone against each other, and then only allows for a few winners - economic position in a debt-based economy is zero sum. Meanwhile, I fully recognize that in order to have my position as being relatively economically comfortable, there are other people out there who cannot be. So rather than "guilt", which implies some sort of irrational emotional state, it is actually continuing to have concern for the people stuck below me in the system that I am forced to help maintain.

gaze 5y ago

it's not that much harder to write software than it is to clean a toilet -- and it's WAY harder being a roofer than writing software. There is little to no coupling between skill, difficulty, and pay.

crazydoggers 5y ago
That is patently absurd… you literally just said it’s as easy to clean a toilet as write software. Is it as easy as doing particle physics? How about brain surgery? Is there a line? If they’re all so easy, what is keeping all these would be software engineers and brain surgeons from getting better jobs? Some sort of conspiracy?? This is the distorted reality I’m talking about.
- odessacubbage 5y ago
  having done both, i've gotta say being a knowledge worker who gets to freelance in my pjs is way easier than doing manual labor out in the snow for 9 hours a day or doing roofing jobs under the hot sun. to be sure i had to learn way more stuff to do what i do now but there is no comparison when it comes to the actual day-to-day labor.
  - mbrodersen 5y ago
    If that is true then why are companies willing to pay a reasonably good software developer a $100k salary instead of just hiring a cheaper roofer instead? It kinda should be really obvious but in case it isn’t: a roofer can’t do the job.
    - gaze 5y ago
      Spoken like someone who has never done hard labor
      - crazydoggers 5y ago
        Spoken like someone with no knowledge of the other person, who’s arguments are based primarily on ad hominem, and who seems to be wed to a socialist workers agenda where every person should be compensated equally for any work. I have done many types of jobs, including physical labor. I’m way more tired, and usually much more stressed out, after doing what you call “easy” jobs. Often the hard labor makes you feel healthier.