8 ms·

Return of the Mac (2005)

mattraibert 15y ago
I'm totally out of phase with other hackers. Apple user: 1985-2003. Windows/Linux user: 2003-2011. I just recently (2011) got a MacBook Pro to work on my first ruby project. I was one of those hackers that stuck with Apple through the 90s. In 1996 I learned how to install netBSD on my mac and in 1997 I installed MkLinux (an Apple sponsored project). I was incredibly excited when Apple announced that it was going to integrate this new (to me) exciting world into the next generation of their operating system. In 2001 I finally got my first machine that was powerful enough to run OSX. But I was a little disappointed. There was no native software, my OS 9 software barely worked and the thing kept breaking. When two power cords broke, the screen broke and the disk drive crashed, I traded for a ThinkPad.
tptacek 15y ago
Did he buy like you recommended? I've made a hobby of embarrassing myself with recommendations to friends not to buy AAPL.
- flurie 15y ago
  Why is that? Just swimming against the current, or do you have particular problems with them? Have you been making other positive recommendations instead?
  - tptacek 15y ago
    P/E.
    - ewanmcteagle 15y ago
      If you back out the $30/share in cash the P/E looks to be around 12.
      - tptacek 15y ago
        Uh, look at the AAPL chart since '05. You don't need a carefully constructed argument to refute my investment thesis. :)
jot 15y ago
[2] Y Combinator is (we hope) visited mostly by hackers. The proportions of OSes are: Windows 66.4%, Macintosh 18.8%, Linux 11.4%, and FreeBSD 1.5%. The Mac number is a big change from what it would have been five years ago. I'm interested to know what the proportions of OSes are today.
- robgough 15y ago
  me too. I just spent the weekend at a hack day (http://leedshack.com http://leedshack.com) in the UK, with over 100 hackers. I barely saw any windows machines, almost everyone had a Mac.
  - rickmb 15y ago
    I've noticed that the percentage of Macs in the same group is higher at events than it is online or inside companies. One could speculate about the reasons, but I do know that seeing hackers I respect with pretty shiny Apple laptops is what triggered me to buy my first Mac back in 2002.
- akent 15y ago
  Results of a HN poll from a few months ago: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2303726 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2303726 Total responses: 1539 Linux: 564 (36.65%) Mac: 557 (36.19%) Windows: 365 (23.72%) Other: 53 (3.44%)
  - officemonkey 15y ago
    Polls can be aspirational. I'd rely more on the server logs say.
    - bostonpete 15y ago
      Well, I would have answered Linux on that poll, because I use it as my primary work environment. But I almost exclusively use Windows for web browsing. Maybe I'm atypical though.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
pclark 15y ago
I have always used Macs and good lord, the days of Mac OS X being out but the processors not being Intel were truly some of the most embarrassing years for Apple computing. I remember owning (and loving - for some reason) an iBook G3 that was basically unusable for a few months whilst I awaited more RAM for it. I think this was when their laptops had 64Mb RAM but Mac OS X really needed 512Mb. And remember when Mac OS X had OS 9 built into it? Ugh. It's crazy to think how dominant Apple is now, compared to those days, and the even more pathetic days before that. I cannot even think of a reason why any consumer wouldn't now go out and purchase a Mac or iPad for their next computer.
- tomaszkubacki 15y ago
  "I cannot even think of a reason why any consumer wouldn't now go out and purchase a Mac or iPad for their next computer." hmm price ?
- TheEskimo 15y ago
  There are many valid reasons. For one, Apple computers are overpriced. The Air is a good deal and the MacBooks themselves aren't too overpriced, but the actual Mac computers are extraordinarily overpriced. They also offer hardware beyond what most users need. A lesser quality computer can browse the web just as well and can do it for a thousand fewer dollars. Price is just one minor point though. Windows still has dominant market share and, as such, is still supported far better by developers. More programs come out for windows than for mac by a long shot. The consumers are also familiar with windows which further increases the chance of them not buying a mac. Anyways, the point of this comment is to refute your last statement. I'll first say that "purchase a .. iPad for their next computer." is completely ridiculous. A tablet cannot fill the needs of a user yet. I'll focus on why many consumers would not want to purchase a Mac. 1. Software support. A large amount of software is available only for windows. 1b. Video games 2. .Net developer/other developer. Many software developers will work on windows because that's their target platform due to the market share. 3. Familiarity. That's a big one. People are familiar with windows and so they stick with it. 4. Price. Because pcs are sold by various venders there are many pricepoints. Apple doesn't allow that. 5. Business relying on legacy software for windows. Do I really need to name more? "I cannot even think of a reason" .. You really couldn't think of any of the above reasons or one of the several more? Macs are great and all, but they aren't the answer to everything. They still have many issues. Apple's tight grip leads to higher quality but higher prices, reduced variety, and reduced content. For now, a windows machine can do almost anything an apple computer can do at less cost. The consumer also has far more choices. A mac can only do a portion of what a pc could do; if the user installs linux than the mac has almost no features left that the pc is incapable of. Perhaps you'll harp on hardware quality, but it's perfectly possible to get machines of similar or better quality to any mac aside from the macbook air.
daed 15y ago
Did this quote make anyone else think of the iPhone a bit? "In the fall of 1983, the professor in one of my college CS classes got up and announced, like a prophet, that there would soon be a computer with half a MIPS of processing power that would fit under an airline seat and cost so little that we could save enough to buy one from a summer job. The whole room gasped. And when the Mac appeared, it was even better than we'd hoped. It was small and powerful and cheap, as promised. But it was also something we'd never considered a computer could be: fabulously well designed."
pizza 15y ago
Why do hackers like Macs that much? Wouldn't it be better to use cross-platform tools?
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- dougws 15y ago
  The whole point of cross-platform tools is that they run on multiple platforms. One of the platforms they likely run on is the Mac.
- thurn 15y ago
  I don't understand the question. How is using a PC more "cross-platform"? If anything, Mac users are a big driving force behind cross-platform initiatives.
- elithrar 15y ago
  > Why do hackers like Macs that much? Wouldn't it be better to use cross-platform tools? I think a lot of us like OS X because we get a Unix build environment with a fairly slick GUI and good third-party app support. Being able to use the same OS for day-to-day tasks (Word docs, Photoshop/Lightroom, etc) and for development is nice, and despite some inconsistencies, the quality of third-party applications is pretty high (i.e. Transmit, TextMate/MacVim, Pixelmator, Adium, etc). Battery life, when it comes to portables, is also a bonus; most Macs have better battery life and less weight than a similarly specced Dell/HP/Lenovo machine (anecdotal, but I think I'm in the ballpark here).
  - mathninja 15y ago
    This is exactly what I say when I explain why I like using a mac. Also the touchpad is amazing. For most of my day-to-day tasks its better than a mouse. I would have never imagined that this was possible.
    - 5hoom 15y ago
      Totally agreed. The MBP trackpad is a wonderful thing & when combined with various swipe gestures I find it really efficient for getting around. Things like being able to do a two finger swipe to scroll an out of focus document or four finger swipe to show active windows are just really nice.
djacobs 15y ago
I switched from a Dell laptop to a PowerBook G4 in 2005 as I was going off to college. I remember very clearly the initial confusion I had dealing with the radically different file setup ("What, you mean I have to distribute my Jar files in 6 different directories? Windows just has the one!") and Unix interface. I laugh now, but the documentation was actually pretty terrible back then, and I couldn't initially figure out where to store files that I was dealing with. (This was back in the day when Apple distributed its own behind-the-times JDK and wouldn't support anything else.) I was so upset the first week I owned my PowerBook that I actually wrote Steve Jobs saying "Why would you ever separate Java externals into so many different directories? Where's the documentation for this Terminal.app program? You're going to lose my business if I find more shenanigans like this in your OS." I got an e-mail back that week from Apple saying "You'll learn to love it, we promise." I was skeptical, but I quickly realized that there's a sanity to Apple's FHS (and Unix's moreso). I also grew to love scripting on the G4 far too much to be able to return the computer as I'd threatened to. Now, I can't imagine ever going back to the "Windows Way", or anything close to it. I still have that G4, and it runs (Arch Linux) like a charm. The one thing I haven't grown fonder with Apple's popularity is that customer service now feels cold. In 2005, it was a legitimate pleasure to talk with an Apple rep on the phone. Several of them were happy to explain the internals of the OS to me my first time through, as they were thrilled to have any Windows convert they could get. Now, things are different, and I don't get the warm, fuzzy feeling I did 6 years ago.
walexander 15y ago
OK, someone convince me to go Mac. I've had essentially zero issues with Windows. I do 99% of my development in Linux (access my devbox through VNC). For desktop use, I have absolutely no problems. I work very fast zooming around with keyboard shortcuts. I don't get viruses or bloatware. Everything is calm and familiar. Every time I get my hands on a Mac, even to simply Google something, I immediately hit issues. Paste is crazy squiggly hash v (or maybe apple v?), I can't right click, I can't win+d to the desktop. I'm sure all of these things are possible, but I'm fumbling around like my grandpa when I taught him to email. At this point, I'm pretty sure it can't all be brand hype (my thoughts a few years ago). I'd really like to know what the incentive is for throwing away years of muscle memory, familiarity, and tweaking ability. So, go ahead, someone sell me on Macs.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
  - kayoone 15y ago
    i'm sorry, but the least expensive 27" iMac is $1700, a comparable monitor would be the Dell Ultrasharp u2711 which is about $850. So while the iMac isnt that bad of a deal, "not much more than the cost of a comparable monitor" is just false.
- Derbasti 15y ago
  That is pretty much like complaining why your new car has no built-in right of way. Sure, keyboard shortcuts are different. But you kind of knew that beforehand, right? Seriously, if that is your biggest complaint, how did you ever get used to Linux?
- tjogin 15y ago
  If what you want from a Mac is for it to work exactly like Windows, down to the last keyboard shortcut: stick with Windows. You seem perfect for each other.
- deleted 15y ago
albertzeyer 15y ago
One important phrase: When it comes to computers, what hackers are doing now, everyone will be doing in ten years. This really often explains upcoming trends in the computer / tech world.
ludwigvan 15y ago
Here is the change of Apple stock from 2005 to 2011: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=AAPL&a=08&b=7&c=2005&d=07&e=8&f=2011&g=m&z=66&y=0 http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=AAPL&a=08&b=7&c=...

I'm totally out of phase with other hackers. Apple user: 1985-2003. Windows/Linux user: 2003-2011. I just recently (2011) got a MacBook Pro to work on my first ruby project. I was one of those hackers that stuck with Apple through the 90s. In 1996 I learned how to install netBSD on my mac and in 1997 I installed MkLinux (an Apple sponsored project). I was incredibly excited when Apple announced that it was going to integrate this new (to me) exciting world into the next generation of their operating system. In 2001 I finally got my first machine that was powerful enough to run OSX. But I was a little disappointed. There was no native software, my OS 9 software barely worked and the thing kept breaking. When two power cords broke, the screen broke and the disk drive crashed, I traded for a ThinkPad.

tptacek 15y ago

Did he buy like you recommended? I've made a hobby of embarrassing myself with recommendations to friends not to buy AAPL.

flurie 15y ago
Why is that? Just swimming against the current, or do you have particular problems with them? Have you been making other positive recommendations instead?
- tptacek 15y ago
  P/E.
  - ewanmcteagle 15y ago
    If you back out the $30/share in cash the P/E looks to be around 12.
    - tptacek 15y ago
      Uh, look at the AAPL chart since '05. You don't need a carefully constructed argument to refute my investment thesis. :)

jot 15y ago

[2] Y Combinator is (we hope) visited mostly by hackers. The proportions of OSes are: Windows 66.4%, Macintosh 18.8%, Linux 11.4%, and FreeBSD 1.5%. The Mac number is a big change from what it would have been five years ago. I'm interested to know what the proportions of OSes are today.

robgough 15y ago
me too. I just spent the weekend at a hack day (http://leedshack.com http://leedshack.com) in the UK, with over 100 hackers. I barely saw any windows machines, almost everyone had a Mac.
- rickmb 15y ago
  I've noticed that the percentage of Macs in the same group is higher at events than it is online or inside companies. One could speculate about the reasons, but I do know that seeing hackers I respect with pretty shiny Apple laptops is what triggered me to buy my first Mac back in 2002.
akent 15y ago
Results of a HN poll from a few months ago: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2303726 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2303726 Total responses: 1539 Linux: 564 (36.65%) Mac: 557 (36.19%) Windows: 365 (23.72%) Other: 53 (3.44%)
- officemonkey 15y ago
  Polls can be aspirational. I'd rely more on the server logs say.
  - bostonpete 15y ago
    Well, I would have answered Linux on that poll, because I use it as my primary work environment. But I almost exclusively use Windows for web browsing. Maybe I'm atypical though.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

pclark 15y ago

I have always used Macs and good lord, the days of Mac OS X being out but the processors not being Intel were truly some of the most embarrassing years for Apple computing. I remember owning (and loving - for some reason) an iBook G3 that was basically unusable for a few months whilst I awaited more RAM for it. I think this was when their laptops had 64Mb RAM but Mac OS X really needed 512Mb. And remember when Mac OS X had OS 9 built into it? Ugh. It's crazy to think how dominant Apple is now, compared to those days, and the even more pathetic days before that. I cannot even think of a reason why any consumer wouldn't now go out and purchase a Mac or iPad for their next computer.

tomaszkubacki 15y ago
"I cannot even think of a reason why any consumer wouldn't now go out and purchase a Mac or iPad for their next computer." hmm price ?
TheEskimo 15y ago
There are many valid reasons. For one, Apple computers are overpriced. The Air is a good deal and the MacBooks themselves aren't too overpriced, but the actual Mac computers are extraordinarily overpriced. They also offer hardware beyond what most users need. A lesser quality computer can browse the web just as well and can do it for a thousand fewer dollars. Price is just one minor point though. Windows still has dominant market share and, as such, is still supported far better by developers. More programs come out for windows than for mac by a long shot. The consumers are also familiar with windows which further increases the chance of them not buying a mac. Anyways, the point of this comment is to refute your last statement. I'll first say that "purchase a .. iPad for their next computer." is completely ridiculous. A tablet cannot fill the needs of a user yet. I'll focus on why many consumers would not want to purchase a Mac. 1. Software support. A large amount of software is available only for windows. 1b. Video games 2. .Net developer/other developer. Many software developers will work on windows because that's their target platform due to the market share. 3. Familiarity. That's a big one. People are familiar with windows and so they stick with it. 4. Price. Because pcs are sold by various venders there are many pricepoints. Apple doesn't allow that. 5. Business relying on legacy software for windows. Do I really need to name more? "I cannot even think of a reason" .. You really couldn't think of any of the above reasons or one of the several more? Macs are great and all, but they aren't the answer to everything. They still have many issues. Apple's tight grip leads to higher quality but higher prices, reduced variety, and reduced content. For now, a windows machine can do almost anything an apple computer can do at less cost. The consumer also has far more choices. A mac can only do a portion of what a pc could do; if the user installs linux than the mac has almost no features left that the pc is incapable of. Perhaps you'll harp on hardware quality, but it's perfectly possible to get machines of similar or better quality to any mac aside from the macbook air.

daed 15y ago

Did this quote make anyone else think of the iPhone a bit? "In the fall of 1983, the professor in one of my college CS classes got up and announced, like a prophet, that there would soon be a computer with half a MIPS of processing power that would fit under an airline seat and cost so little that we could save enough to buy one from a summer job. The whole room gasped. And when the Mac appeared, it was even better than we'd hoped. It was small and powerful and cheap, as promised. But it was also something we'd never considered a computer could be: fabulously well designed."

pizza 15y ago

Why do hackers like Macs that much? Wouldn't it be better to use cross-platform tools?

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
dougws 15y ago
The whole point of cross-platform tools is that they run on multiple platforms. One of the platforms they likely run on is the Mac.
thurn 15y ago
I don't understand the question. How is using a PC more "cross-platform"? If anything, Mac users are a big driving force behind cross-platform initiatives.
elithrar 15y ago
> Why do hackers like Macs that much? Wouldn't it be better to use cross-platform tools? I think a lot of us like OS X because we get a Unix build environment with a fairly slick GUI and good third-party app support. Being able to use the same OS for day-to-day tasks (Word docs, Photoshop/Lightroom, etc) and for development is nice, and despite some inconsistencies, the quality of third-party applications is pretty high (i.e. Transmit, TextMate/MacVim, Pixelmator, Adium, etc). Battery life, when it comes to portables, is also a bonus; most Macs have better battery life and less weight than a similarly specced Dell/HP/Lenovo machine (anecdotal, but I think I'm in the ballpark here).
- mathninja 15y ago
  This is exactly what I say when I explain why I like using a mac. Also the touchpad is amazing. For most of my day-to-day tasks its better than a mouse. I would have never imagined that this was possible.
  - 5hoom 15y ago
    Totally agreed. The MBP trackpad is a wonderful thing & when combined with various swipe gestures I find it really efficient for getting around. Things like being able to do a two finger swipe to scroll an out of focus document or four finger swipe to show active windows are just really nice.

djacobs 15y ago

I switched from a Dell laptop to a PowerBook G4 in 2005 as I was going off to college. I remember very clearly the initial confusion I had dealing with the radically different file setup ("What, you mean I have to distribute my Jar files in 6 different directories? Windows just has the one!") and Unix interface. I laugh now, but the documentation was actually pretty terrible back then, and I couldn't initially figure out where to store files that I was dealing with. (This was back in the day when Apple distributed its own behind-the-times JDK and wouldn't support anything else.) I was so upset the first week I owned my PowerBook that I actually wrote Steve Jobs saying "Why would you ever separate Java externals into so many different directories? Where's the documentation for this Terminal.app program? You're going to lose my business if I find more shenanigans like this in your OS." I got an e-mail back that week from Apple saying "You'll learn to love it, we promise." I was skeptical, but I quickly realized that there's a sanity to Apple's FHS (and Unix's moreso). I also grew to love scripting on the G4 far too much to be able to return the computer as I'd threatened to. Now, I can't imagine ever going back to the "Windows Way", or anything close to it. I still have that G4, and it runs (Arch Linux) like a charm. The one thing I haven't grown fonder with Apple's popularity is that customer service now feels cold. In 2005, it was a legitimate pleasure to talk with an Apple rep on the phone. Several of them were happy to explain the internals of the OS to me my first time through, as they were thrilled to have any Windows convert they could get. Now, things are different, and I don't get the warm, fuzzy feeling I did 6 years ago.

walexander 15y ago

OK, someone convince me to go Mac. I've had essentially zero issues with Windows. I do 99% of my development in Linux (access my devbox through VNC). For desktop use, I have absolutely no problems. I work very fast zooming around with keyboard shortcuts. I don't get viruses or bloatware. Everything is calm and familiar. Every time I get my hands on a Mac, even to simply Google something, I immediately hit issues. Paste is crazy squiggly hash v (or maybe apple v?), I can't right click, I can't win+d to the desktop. I'm sure all of these things are possible, but I'm fumbling around like my grandpa when I taught him to email. At this point, I'm pretty sure it can't all be brand hype (my thoughts a few years ago). I'd really like to know what the incentive is for throwing away years of muscle memory, familiarity, and tweaking ability. So, go ahead, someone sell me on Macs.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
- kayoone 15y ago
  i'm sorry, but the least expensive 27" iMac is $1700, a comparable monitor would be the Dell Ultrasharp u2711 which is about $850. So while the iMac isnt that bad of a deal, "not much more than the cost of a comparable monitor" is just false.
Derbasti 15y ago
That is pretty much like complaining why your new car has no built-in right of way. Sure, keyboard shortcuts are different. But you kind of knew that beforehand, right? Seriously, if that is your biggest complaint, how did you ever get used to Linux?
tjogin 15y ago
If what you want from a Mac is for it to work exactly like Windows, down to the last keyboard shortcut: stick with Windows. You seem perfect for each other.
deleted 15y ago

albertzeyer 15y ago

One important phrase: When it comes to computers, what hackers are doing now, everyone will be doing in ten years. This really often explains upcoming trends in the computer / tech world.

ludwigvan 15y ago

Here is the change of Apple stock from 2005 to 2011: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=AAPL&a=08&b=7&c=2005&d=07&e=8&f=2011&g=m&z=66&y=0 http://finance.yahoo.com/q/hp?s=AAPL&a=08&b=7&c=...