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telegram also removed bots from Navalny team which you could ask what non-ruling-party candidate has most chances to win, to facilitate "protest", tactical vote

telegram also removed bots from Navalny team which you could ask what non-ruling-party candidate has most chances to win, to facilitate "protest", tactical vote, much the same as the app would do. Telegram CEO cited some nonsense about "silent days" (why would he had obey them?) which are not even a thing with current 3-day voting in Russia. Many people agree Durov just got threaten that telegram app would be yanked from appstores, just like navalniy's app. Huge win of the current government in their intimidation tactics.

akho 5y ago
“Silent days” are still a thing. The new bit is that the day before the election is not included, only the election days themselves. This prohibition makes sense to me. My personal opinion is that telegram’s actions are reasonable in this context. Navalny’s team fucked up by publishing their recommendations only on the 15th, two days before voting. I don’t understand that decision at all.
- gnull 5y ago
  This ensures Putin's government won't have enough time to subvert the recommended candidates in some way.
  - akho 5y ago
    The government will have plenty of time to do that after the election.
    - gnull 5y ago
      But that won't prevent the person from being elected. Doing it after comes with many drawbacks.
      - akho 5y ago
        Doing that before the election (I assume your plan, if you were Putin, is to have all 225 “recommended” candidates withdraw?) is more difficult than subverting the, very optimistically, 30 that will get elected.
        gnull 5y ago
        There is no dichotomy here. If you know the candidates beforehand, you can bully them before the election, see who wins nevertheless, and bully those again. > to have all 225 “recommended” candidates withdraw? Having some of them withdraw is also useful, it's a numbers game.
        akho 5y ago
        The candidates are known beforehand. Putin’s men do not need Navalny to tell them whether there is a popular candidate in an electoral district. Consolidation of “protest” votes does not make someone win an election; it gives a small extra push in contested districts.
        gnull 5y ago
        You really don't see the difference between eliminating all the candidates (and all popular candidates) and eliminating one candidate per district? Smart Voting™ creates these popular candidates in the districts where all competitors of Putin's guy are more or less equally popular. Knowing whom they will make popular is an advantage for Putin, don't you agree? I have a feeling you're arguing out of stubbornness. My original point was that announcing the Smart Voting lists in the last moment can be useful, I think gave some good reasons for it.
        akho 5y ago
        “One per district” is 225, “all popular” in contested districts is, like, maybe 70? Smart voting does not create new popular candidates. It’s a way to concentrate the 5 % they can access (or 2 %, if badly mismanaged by publishing the list too late) in an efficient way.
  - Sideyon 5y ago
    But there was nothing to hide, everyone knew that it will be basically "vote for Communists".
    - gnull 5y ago
      Don't they need to announce a concrete Communist to vote for? Last time I checked the number of Communists in Russia was strictly greater than one.
      - akho 5y ago
        One Communist Party candidate per electoral district, yes.
    - gnull 5y ago
      It's not true. I checked and I see plenty of Yabloko candidates being suggested
- jakobdabo 5y ago
  After that day candidates can not withdraw from the elections (that's the law), so the government can't threaten the recommended candidates.
- BrandoElFollito 5y ago
  You have these "silent days" in most countries. When we have elections in France, we just look at Belgian or Swiss newspapers to see how the votes are going on. They do not care about these days, only French newspapers and media do. Twitter does not, Facebook does not, Telegram does not - nobody cares except for France. How is Russia different?
  - akho 5y ago
    You either believe that this regulation makes sense, or you don’t. France, apparently, is in a situation where nobody cares enough to enforce, but taking the law off the books is not politically feasible. I do not know whether that’s a good thing. As a Russian: the election has a limited relevance beyond a certain type of signaling. The majority of United Russia is largely guaranteed by the “electoral sultanates”, so votes cast now will not impact new legislation over the next five years. If your purpose is to signal things, being morally clean is more important than the number of votes you manage to achieve. If a law is reasonable, and a norm in multiple other well-regarded systems, it makes sense to comply.
    - thriftwy 5y ago
      It could still allow for a few independent-ish senators via single mandate district system. If it is allowed to run fairly at least in some locales. Source: observing one.
      - akho 5y ago
        Sure. How does this relate to the very late publishing of lists? Or to complying with “silent days”?
        thriftwy 5y ago
        It doesn't. Merely a comment towards the state of electoral affairs.
    - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
baybal2 5y ago
There is a theory that Telegram is a Russian op, given that they still having office in Russia, which they are very secretive about, despite the claims of Durov being nearly chased by KGB on every corner.
- hkai 5y ago
  You are correct that there is this theory, yet I haven't seen any evidence of that. Deleting Navalny's bot seems like a response to a threat from Apple and Google. To fight this, it would be great to abandon Apple and distribute all apps via Android APKs, circumventing the app stores. (Not gonna happen, I know) First they came for the American opposition, then they came for the Russian opposition, then there was no opposition at all.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- strogonoff 5y ago
  Telegram had been banned by Russian authorities with a demand to disclose E2E encryption keys previously, then that ban was miraculously lifted last year. What is happening beneath the curtain is anyone’s guess. Setting aside any speculation as to whether they are in fact a state-backed covert operation, last time I checked it appeared to be a tiny company of undisclosed structure, which—while in a way glamorous/romantic—does not strike me as a radically more acceptable/sustainable state of affairs, as it makes the individuals involved liable to be influenced (including through [in]direct fear for personal safety, a mechanism markedly more effective than fines or legal action) by whomever is able to find them.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    We now see that Apple and Google routinely remove apps by request of Russian government. How come Telegram was never removed? Maybe the russian government never really asked?
    - 5y ago

akho 5y ago

“Silent days” are still a thing. The new bit is that the day before the election is not included, only the election days themselves. This prohibition makes sense to me. My personal opinion is that telegram’s actions are reasonable in this context. Navalny’s team fucked up by publishing their recommendations only on the 15th, two days before voting. I don’t understand that decision at all.

gnull 5y ago
This ensures Putin's government won't have enough time to subvert the recommended candidates in some way.
- akho 5y ago
  The government will have plenty of time to do that after the election.
  - gnull 5y ago
    But that won't prevent the person from being elected. Doing it after comes with many drawbacks.
    - akho 5y ago
      Doing that before the election (I assume your plan, if you were Putin, is to have all 225 “recommended” candidates withdraw?) is more difficult than subverting the, very optimistically, 30 that will get elected.
      - gnull 5y ago
        There is no dichotomy here. If you know the candidates beforehand, you can bully them before the election, see who wins nevertheless, and bully those again. > to have all 225 “recommended” candidates withdraw? Having some of them withdraw is also useful, it's a numbers game.
        akho 5y ago
        The candidates are known beforehand. Putin’s men do not need Navalny to tell them whether there is a popular candidate in an electoral district. Consolidation of “protest” votes does not make someone win an election; it gives a small extra push in contested districts.
        gnull 5y ago
        You really don't see the difference between eliminating all the candidates (and all popular candidates) and eliminating one candidate per district? Smart Voting™ creates these popular candidates in the districts where all competitors of Putin's guy are more or less equally popular. Knowing whom they will make popular is an advantage for Putin, don't you agree? I have a feeling you're arguing out of stubbornness. My original point was that announcing the Smart Voting lists in the last moment can be useful, I think gave some good reasons for it.
        akho 5y ago
        “One per district” is 225, “all popular” in contested districts is, like, maybe 70? Smart voting does not create new popular candidates. It’s a way to concentrate the 5 % they can access (or 2 %, if badly mismanaged by publishing the list too late) in an efficient way.
- Sideyon 5y ago
  But there was nothing to hide, everyone knew that it will be basically "vote for Communists".
  - gnull 5y ago
    Don't they need to announce a concrete Communist to vote for? Last time I checked the number of Communists in Russia was strictly greater than one.
    - akho 5y ago
      One Communist Party candidate per electoral district, yes.
  - gnull 5y ago
    It's not true. I checked and I see plenty of Yabloko candidates being suggested
jakobdabo 5y ago
After that day candidates can not withdraw from the elections (that's the law), so the government can't threaten the recommended candidates.
BrandoElFollito 5y ago
You have these "silent days" in most countries. When we have elections in France, we just look at Belgian or Swiss newspapers to see how the votes are going on. They do not care about these days, only French newspapers and media do. Twitter does not, Facebook does not, Telegram does not - nobody cares except for France. How is Russia different?
- akho 5y ago
  You either believe that this regulation makes sense, or you don’t. France, apparently, is in a situation where nobody cares enough to enforce, but taking the law off the books is not politically feasible. I do not know whether that’s a good thing. As a Russian: the election has a limited relevance beyond a certain type of signaling. The majority of United Russia is largely guaranteed by the “electoral sultanates”, so votes cast now will not impact new legislation over the next five years. If your purpose is to signal things, being morally clean is more important than the number of votes you manage to achieve. If a law is reasonable, and a norm in multiple other well-regarded systems, it makes sense to comply.
  - thriftwy 5y ago
    It could still allow for a few independent-ish senators via single mandate district system. If it is allowed to run fairly at least in some locales. Source: observing one.
    - akho 5y ago
      Sure. How does this relate to the very late publishing of lists? Or to complying with “silent days”?
      - thriftwy 5y ago
        It doesn't. Merely a comment towards the state of electoral affairs.
  - BrandoElFollito 5y ago

baybal2 5y ago

There is a theory that Telegram is a Russian op, given that they still having office in Russia, which they are very secretive about, despite the claims of Durov being nearly chased by KGB on every corner.

hkai 5y ago
You are correct that there is this theory, yet I haven't seen any evidence of that. Deleting Navalny's bot seems like a response to a threat from Apple and Google. To fight this, it would be great to abandon Apple and distribute all apps via Android APKs, circumventing the app stores. (Not gonna happen, I know) First they came for the American opposition, then they came for the Russian opposition, then there was no opposition at all.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
strogonoff 5y ago
Telegram had been banned by Russian authorities with a demand to disclose E2E encryption keys previously, then that ban was miraculously lifted last year. What is happening beneath the curtain is anyone’s guess. Setting aside any speculation as to whether they are in fact a state-backed covert operation, last time I checked it appeared to be a tiny company of undisclosed structure, which—while in a way glamorous/romantic—does not strike me as a radically more acceptable/sustainable state of affairs, as it makes the individuals involved liable to be influenced (including through [in]direct fear for personal safety, a mechanism markedly more effective than fines or legal action) by whomever is able to find them.
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  We now see that Apple and Google routinely remove apps by request of Russian government. How come Telegram was never removed? Maybe the russian government never really asked?
  - 5y ago