5 ms·

Do you have evidence that they have lowered tbe quality of cinema across the board? I see a studio that consistently produces content with excellent visual qua

by n8cpdx 5y ago

Do you have evidence that they have lowered tbe quality of cinema across the board? I see a studio that consistently produces content with excellent visual quality, excellent audio quality, consistently high quality acting, decent plot twists, cross-film synergy (even working across studios), and even morally ambiguous characters. I don't see what's missing, aside from a failure to play to elitist tendencies that assume mainstream=bad. The reflexive assumption that something is popular is automatically trash (I see this with pop music a lot, too) seems like it is predicated on a fundamentally bizarre conception of 'good'-ness or quality.

betwixthewires 5y ago
You're asking for proof that a subjective medium of expression has changed measurably in quality? I don't have proof, just an opinion. The storylines and plot lines are all formulaic and one dimensional, the characters have basically no depth to them, the name of the game is throw a budget at graphics and rake in the money, and finally, lots of expressive elements are off the table if they want the Chinese market, which they do. I don't know how many times people can watch the good guy fire laser beams at the bad guy and win and still enjoy it, maybe one day they'll have to mix it up and have the good guys lose until the sequel comes out in which they undo the loss and still win, predictably.
- thom 5y ago
  I feel the same way about endless prestige dramas involving guys doing crimes and then agonising about it. I don’t believe any of us is starved for content though.
  - moomin 5y ago
    You're not wrong that much prestige drama has become just as tired and formulaic as the average procedural. The point was ably made in this profile of Jane the Virgin's showrunner: https://www.vulture.com/2019/03/jane-the-virgin-jennie-snyder-urman-profile.html https://www.vulture.com/2019/03/jane-the-virgin-jennie-snyde...
- n8cpdx 5y ago
  Maybe I'm too much of a nerd, but I think quality can, in general, be defined and measured. I get that you don't like the genera of action films, and that's fine. But there are moments of the film between the laser beams firing. Sometimes long moments. Sometimes the majority of the film. Are there any films that aren't formulaic? Or are original in some way? As far as I can tell, the trend is: human or human surrogate faces challenge or complication that is resolved. Often following a heroes journey pattern. Sometimes the enemy is nature. Sometimes man itself (I would interpret as another form of nature, but not so useful). Sometimes the challenge is loss. Sometimes the challenge is fear. Sometimes it's fear of loss. Sometimes it's a mating attempt. Sometimes it's an existential risk. Of course you can dress up the underlying formula a variety of ways. If your a french or whatever filmmaker and want to pander to artsy types you add lots of long slow scenes where nothing happens. Sometimes you spice it up with a gay kid or something. Maybe throw in a racial aspect to make a statement. I don't know how many times people can look at any human endeavor and not realize it is all bullshit. But if it is all meaningless bullshit (in a meaningless universe) then perhaps none of it is? Perhaps many MCU entries are technical achievements with interesting twists that are exemplary specimens of exactly the type of film they are meant to be. I'm not asking for proof, I'm asking for evidence of anything beyond a facile, intellectually lazy approach to media criticism. And believe me, there are a lot of flaws in modern Hollywood, but action movies being too well produced isn't really one of them.
- moomin 5y ago
  Avengers, Infinity War (2018)
  - betwixthewires 5y ago
    You did catch the last part about making sure the Good Guys™ win in a sequel? That was a tongue in cheek jab at that movie and it's sequel.
periphrasis 5y ago
Have you considered the possibility that critics of the MCU are not elitist and that you merely have underdeveloped taste? That ostensibly educated adults will go to bat for the cultural dominance of stories that are thematically simple enough to be understood fully by children will never cease to amaze me.
- judge2020 5y ago
  If you consider liking/appreciating the MCU films as 'underdeveloped taste', then that's pretty close to being elitist. Not everyone goes to the cinema for the same type of content, so everyone's "taste" will be subjective. In that same respect, I don't think OP can ask for "evidence" that the MCU has lowered the quality of content across the board - the only thing we can see is that many other media companies want to mimic the money-printing machine that is the MCU, only to fail by outputting (unanimously) subpar films. The poster child is DC, but there are other examples, like how Universal tried to make a 'Dark Universe' and has effectively canned that[0]. That might mean more movie budget is used to poorly mimic a formula you dislike instead of movies you would like. 0: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/27/movies/the-invisible-man-universal.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/27/movies/the-invisible-man-...
  - periphrasis 5y ago
    If you think it’s elitist to ask adults to like adult things rather than things for children, have at it. I should note that the poster I responded to, in listing the merits of MCU films, discussed only technical details and the baseline of coherent storytelling; theme, meaning, film making craft, and artistic merit shockingly did not enter the discussion. I would call that underdeveloped taste and a limited understanding of how literary media work as art. If that makes me elitist, fair enough, but I’d much rather be an elitist than go through life thinking comic books are the height of human expression.
    - n8cpdx 5y ago
      > I’d much rather be an elitist than go through life thinking comic books are the height of human expression. Perhaps I'm too much of a child to understand your point, but this seems like a straw man. I think the original contention was that MCU content is low quality (and no one has provided anything to support that claim beyond hand wavey "it's for children" nonsense). The other contention was that MCU films reduce the quality of the cinema industry overall, which is a similarly baseless claim. Independent films still exist. Dramatic films still exist. Artistic production still exists. I haven't seen stats, but I would be shocked if the market for such content is smaller now than it was in 2008. There's the possible claim that MCU sucks the oxygen out of the room for more artistic productions. I think the idea is that the world would be better if popular content didn't exist, so that we'd all have only "artistic" content available. I think that is a world in which fewer people watch movies at all, not a world in which everyone is driven to only appreciate high art. Thus the claims that MCU reduce the quality of cinema overall seems hard to defend. I'm curious about the other perspective, so any perspective or analysis that better explains the thinking would be helpful. Otherwise I have to assume folks are just coming up with stories to justify their elitism. BTW: "theme, meaning, film making craft, and artistic merit" - craft was addressed in all of the sub-categories listed: performance, visual art, music, audio, effects - theme/meaning: varies by film (because they aren't all the same). Sometimes it's loss and grief. Sometime's it's managing conflicts. Sometimes its reckoning with the inherent conflicts in heroism. Sometimes it's displacement after war. Sometimes it's about the forces that drive people to extremism. IDK humans aren't that complicated. - artistic merit: a bullshit concept and I think you know it. Literal urinals have artistic merit. Canvases painted red have artistic merit. "Artistic merit" is elitism in distilled form. Edit: I will concede that the performances in "Black Widow" were particularly weak.
TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
I don’t agree with the sentiment, but the typical argument is that there is not much originality or risk in pop films: they follow a formula or pattern that succeeded before (like The Heroes Journey and others) with slightly different details or characters.
herbstein 5y ago
I'm usually in the cinema for opening night of new MCU movies, so this isn't said from a place of hatred of disgust of the movies. They're cookie-cutter corporate media that does the bare minimum to not be entirely the same movie every time. The acting isn't high quality across the board -- it's average. The plots and their twists are, frankly, banal in every aspect apart from being vehicles of spectacle. There's no real moral gray-ness to the characters, Wenwu from Shang Chi being an obvious exception to the rule. The shows, which were supposed to come in with a fresh, long-form perspective on main characters and their struggles start out with interesting premises and then quickly falter because of their adherence to the MCU mythos. Wandavision and Loki completely fail in the latter half of their seasons to pay off any of the character beats in favor of big spectacle and exposition dumps.
aaaaaaaaaaab 5y ago
You just have an average taste. It’s a good thing: there will always be tons of stuff you like. Embrace it!

by n8cpdx 5y ago

betwixthewires 5y ago

You're asking for proof that a subjective medium of expression has changed measurably in quality? I don't have proof, just an opinion. The storylines and plot lines are all formulaic and one dimensional, the characters have basically no depth to them, the name of the game is throw a budget at graphics and rake in the money, and finally, lots of expressive elements are off the table if they want the Chinese market, which they do. I don't know how many times people can watch the good guy fire laser beams at the bad guy and win and still enjoy it, maybe one day they'll have to mix it up and have the good guys lose until the sequel comes out in which they undo the loss and still win, predictably.

thom 5y ago
I feel the same way about endless prestige dramas involving guys doing crimes and then agonising about it. I don’t believe any of us is starved for content though.
- moomin 5y ago
  You're not wrong that much prestige drama has become just as tired and formulaic as the average procedural. The point was ably made in this profile of Jane the Virgin's showrunner: https://www.vulture.com/2019/03/jane-the-virgin-jennie-snyder-urman-profile.html https://www.vulture.com/2019/03/jane-the-virgin-jennie-snyde...
n8cpdx 5y ago
Maybe I'm too much of a nerd, but I think quality can, in general, be defined and measured. I get that you don't like the genera of action films, and that's fine. But there are moments of the film between the laser beams firing. Sometimes long moments. Sometimes the majority of the film. Are there any films that aren't formulaic? Or are original in some way? As far as I can tell, the trend is: human or human surrogate faces challenge or complication that is resolved. Often following a heroes journey pattern. Sometimes the enemy is nature. Sometimes man itself (I would interpret as another form of nature, but not so useful). Sometimes the challenge is loss. Sometimes the challenge is fear. Sometimes it's fear of loss. Sometimes it's a mating attempt. Sometimes it's an existential risk. Of course you can dress up the underlying formula a variety of ways. If your a french or whatever filmmaker and want to pander to artsy types you add lots of long slow scenes where nothing happens. Sometimes you spice it up with a gay kid or something. Maybe throw in a racial aspect to make a statement. I don't know how many times people can look at any human endeavor and not realize it is all bullshit. But if it is all meaningless bullshit (in a meaningless universe) then perhaps none of it is? Perhaps many MCU entries are technical achievements with interesting twists that are exemplary specimens of exactly the type of film they are meant to be. I'm not asking for proof, I'm asking for evidence of anything beyond a facile, intellectually lazy approach to media criticism. And believe me, there are a lot of flaws in modern Hollywood, but action movies being too well produced isn't really one of them.
moomin 5y ago
Avengers, Infinity War (2018)
- betwixthewires 5y ago
  You did catch the last part about making sure the Good Guys™ win in a sequel? That was a tongue in cheek jab at that movie and it's sequel.

periphrasis 5y ago

Have you considered the possibility that critics of the MCU are not elitist and that you merely have underdeveloped taste? That ostensibly educated adults will go to bat for the cultural dominance of stories that are thematically simple enough to be understood fully by children will never cease to amaze me.

judge2020 5y ago
If you consider liking/appreciating the MCU films as 'underdeveloped taste', then that's pretty close to being elitist. Not everyone goes to the cinema for the same type of content, so everyone's "taste" will be subjective. In that same respect, I don't think OP can ask for "evidence" that the MCU has lowered the quality of content across the board - the only thing we can see is that many other media companies want to mimic the money-printing machine that is the MCU, only to fail by outputting (unanimously) subpar films. The poster child is DC, but there are other examples, like how Universal tried to make a 'Dark Universe' and has effectively canned that[0]. That might mean more movie budget is used to poorly mimic a formula you dislike instead of movies you would like. 0: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/27/movies/the-invisible-man-universal.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/27/movies/the-invisible-man-...
- periphrasis 5y ago
  If you think it’s elitist to ask adults to like adult things rather than things for children, have at it. I should note that the poster I responded to, in listing the merits of MCU films, discussed only technical details and the baseline of coherent storytelling; theme, meaning, film making craft, and artistic merit shockingly did not enter the discussion. I would call that underdeveloped taste and a limited understanding of how literary media work as art. If that makes me elitist, fair enough, but I’d much rather be an elitist than go through life thinking comic books are the height of human expression.
  - n8cpdx 5y ago
    > I’d much rather be an elitist than go through life thinking comic books are the height of human expression. Perhaps I'm too much of a child to understand your point, but this seems like a straw man. I think the original contention was that MCU content is low quality (and no one has provided anything to support that claim beyond hand wavey "it's for children" nonsense). The other contention was that MCU films reduce the quality of the cinema industry overall, which is a similarly baseless claim. Independent films still exist. Dramatic films still exist. Artistic production still exists. I haven't seen stats, but I would be shocked if the market for such content is smaller now than it was in 2008. There's the possible claim that MCU sucks the oxygen out of the room for more artistic productions. I think the idea is that the world would be better if popular content didn't exist, so that we'd all have only "artistic" content available. I think that is a world in which fewer people watch movies at all, not a world in which everyone is driven to only appreciate high art. Thus the claims that MCU reduce the quality of cinema overall seems hard to defend. I'm curious about the other perspective, so any perspective or analysis that better explains the thinking would be helpful. Otherwise I have to assume folks are just coming up with stories to justify their elitism. BTW: "theme, meaning, film making craft, and artistic merit" - craft was addressed in all of the sub-categories listed: performance, visual art, music, audio, effects - theme/meaning: varies by film (because they aren't all the same). Sometimes it's loss and grief. Sometime's it's managing conflicts. Sometimes its reckoning with the inherent conflicts in heroism. Sometimes it's displacement after war. Sometimes it's about the forces that drive people to extremism. IDK humans aren't that complicated. - artistic merit: a bullshit concept and I think you know it. Literal urinals have artistic merit. Canvases painted red have artistic merit. "Artistic merit" is elitism in distilled form. Edit: I will concede that the performances in "Black Widow" were particularly weak.

TedDoesntTalk 5y ago

I don’t agree with the sentiment, but the typical argument is that there is not much originality or risk in pop films: they follow a formula or pattern that succeeded before (like The Heroes Journey and others) with slightly different details or characters.

herbstein 5y ago

I'm usually in the cinema for opening night of new MCU movies, so this isn't said from a place of hatred of disgust of the movies. They're cookie-cutter corporate media that does the bare minimum to not be entirely the same movie every time. The acting isn't high quality across the board -- it's average. The plots and their twists are, frankly, banal in every aspect apart from being vehicles of spectacle. There's no real moral gray-ness to the characters, Wenwu from Shang Chi being an obvious exception to the rule. The shows, which were supposed to come in with a fresh, long-form perspective on main characters and their struggles start out with interesting premises and then quickly falter because of their adherence to the MCU mythos. Wandavision and Loki completely fail in the latter half of their seasons to pay off any of the character beats in favor of big spectacle and exposition dumps.

aaaaaaaaaaab 5y ago

You just have an average taste. It’s a good thing: there will always be tons of stuff you like. Embrace it!