4 ms·

Overtime: We Need a Shorter Working Week

46 points by Terretta 5y ago

chiefalchemist 5y ago
Many USA creative agencies have half days on Friday in the summer. That's gotten me to thinking... What I'm looking for is 40 hrs one week, but 32 the next. The result would be every other Friday off. Then align thoses Fridays with Monday holidays, that would yield a number of 4 day weekends. So an average of 36 hrs per week (10% less than the current standard) with a beautiful increase in recovery time.
- dudul 5y ago
  Companies doing that are very smart in my opinion. What do people actually get done on a Friday afternoon? Might as well get the PR points and make people happy. It's akin to how some companies just close the office between Christmas and New Year's Eve. Again, a smart move. What do people actually get done during these 4 days? Might as well look like a nice, caring company.
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    Interestingly, I always got done quite a lot more on Friday afternoon, with much less buzz around, thus more concentration.
    - dudul 5y ago
      I'll be honest, despite my previous comment, I'm the same. I actually love the Holiday week where half the company is out traveling and the other half is just futzing. But I recognize that I (and apparently you as well :) ) am an outlier.
eigengrau5150 5y ago
If we want to free ourselves of the tyranny of work, we need to stop waiting for our masters to set us free. Freedom is not a gift to be given, but a prize to be taken. https://octoberstrike.com/ https://octoberstrike.com/ — Take October 15th off, with or without permission. Then keep taking days off until the bosses get the message. In the meantime, don't work more than 6 hours a day. If you still have to be present for 8 hours, spend the time reading or something that isn't work-related.
Proven 5y ago
Open own shop, pay the same wage as other employers but work less and let your employees work less.
koch 5y ago
Companies that are ahead of the curve: 4dayweek.io thelistofcompanies.com Personally I think a shorter week is a much more compelling competitive advantage for hiring than other benefits - give people more of their own time back.
supernova87a 5y ago
Let's be clear: what some people who advocate for this want is "we want to work less, but be paid the same or greater". I'm simply amazed that you can read any such article/essay and not see a single $ sign in the entire thing. It's like asking your child whether we should buy a bigger house. "Yes! That would be great!" Should the government offer more benefits? "Yes! I love the idea!" Um, we're missing a certain part of the question, don't you think?
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  Yes, this is what’s being asked for. No, with enormous increases in productivity that has been realized over decades, it doesn’t seem unreasonable. Otherwise, all of these productivity gains are being funneled to the top capital owners while everyone keeps slaving away for five workdays per week. The wealth and productivity already exists to enables such a reduction in weekly work hours. It hasn’t been addressed yet because of inertia. https://www.oecd.org/economy/decoupling-of-wages-from-productivity/ https://www.oecd.org/economy/decoupling-of-wages-from-produc...
  - supernova87a 5y ago
    Getting paid more because your labor has become more productive isn't how (in large part) wages are set in a capitalist/market system. They are set by how many people are willing to supply labor at a given price, and how much is demanded. And basically, how much the next guy is willing to get paid. Up until very recently, we had a surplus of labor in this country and therefore many jobs were stagnant in wage growth. That's not going to change until the fundamental force of numbers changes, or some other change comes around. (see, pandemic) You don't get paid more just because you use a piece of equipment that churns through 2x as much. Unless that machine costs a lot of money and requires education to operate it.
    - toomuchtodo 5y ago
      That’s what laws, labor regulation, and taxes are for. Labor markets are not pure capitalism because people > capital. We just keep ratcheting up minimum wages, and ratcheting down the work week. How quickly this occurs is a function of electorate composition turnover. We’re almost at $15/hr as a minimum wage due to market forces, which makes it easier to lock it in with statue as it’s proven it’s sustainable at scale. Of course, businesses built on labor costs that are unsustainable for workers are themselves unsustainable. Several countries are trialing 4 day work weeks, and if I recall, Iceland’s trial was so successful they’re moving forward with it permanently. That is data driven labor policy showing it’s feasible. It sounds like you support a more brutalist, pure capitalist system for labor, but that’s not what exists currently nor what is likely as the US electorate tilts further away from conservatism (older voters are most conservative, and die at a rate of ~1.8 million per year; public policy progress is a function of the death rate). (politics discussed because public policy is a core component of labor rights, citations below for all of my assertions) https://apnews.com/article/business-health-coronavirus-pandemic-minimum-wage-940a6a7530d734242c6f384b751b8033 https://apnews.com/article/business-health-coronavirus-pande... ($15 wage becoming a norm as employers struggle to fill jobs) https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/the-republican-party-has-an-older-voters-problem.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/the-republican-party... (The Republican Party Has an Older Voters Problem) https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2020/06/02/the-changing-composition-of-the-electorate-and-partisan-coalitions/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2020/06/02/the-changing... (The changing composition of the electorate and partisan coalitions) https://www.bbc.com/news/business-57724779 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-57724779 (Four-day week 'an overwhelming success' in Iceland; The trials led unions to renegotiate working patterns, and now 86% of Iceland's workforce have either moved to shorter hours for the same pay, or will gain the right to, the researchers said.) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/15/spain-to-launch-trial-of-four-day-working-week https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/15/spain-to-launc... (Spain to launch trial of four-day working week) https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-58403087 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-58403... (Scotland to trial a four-day week)
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
philmcp 5y ago
We 100% need a shorter week The advantages are numerous but one of the key advantages is increased productivity. A 4 day week = a 50% longer weekend. (Knowledge) workers are more productive with this extra day off meaning there is almost no drop in output from the employers perspective. From a personal perspective, I get much less work done on a Friday than on a Monday This increase in productivity has been documented in many studies and is one of the main reasons I started https://4dayweek.io https://4dayweek.io
anm89 5y ago
It takes about the 15 seconds of thinking through these laws before the holes the size of planets start to appear. What percentage of Americans work exactly 40 hour work weeks. What percentage of those jobs can be economically supported at 4/5 of the hours. The answer is surely in the millions. it's not 0. but that's much different than it being some universal. All of retail is out which is a big percentage of the 40 or 40+ hour a week hourly cohort. Maybe it makes sense specifically for government employees or something. Anyway arguing it is besides the point. it's such a poorly framed ask that there is 0 chance of it happening at scale so no need to fight it. Also, obligatory to point out that Jacobin makes Fox News look impartial. it's an absolute junk source of journalism.
rvr_ 5y ago
Here in Brazil its very common for healthcare workers to have a 12h/36h schedule. They work 12 hours and rest one and a half day, in theory. This kind of schedule was heavily pushed by unions and even coded into law. The end result is that I don't know of a single healthcare worker who doesn't have more than one job. They are working 60 hours/week...

46 points by Terretta 5y ago

Many USA creative agencies have half days on Friday in the summer. That's gotten me to thinking... What I'm looking for is 40 hrs one week, but 32 the next. The result would be every other Friday off. Then align thoses Fridays with Monday holidays, that would yield a number of 4 day weekends. So an average of 36 hrs per week (10% less than the current standard) with a beautiful increase in recovery time.

dudul 5y ago
Companies doing that are very smart in my opinion. What do people actually get done on a Friday afternoon? Might as well get the PR points and make people happy. It's akin to how some companies just close the office between Christmas and New Year's Eve. Again, a smart move. What do people actually get done during these 4 days? Might as well look like a nice, caring company.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  Interestingly, I always got done quite a lot more on Friday afternoon, with much less buzz around, thus more concentration.
  - dudul 5y ago
    I'll be honest, despite my previous comment, I'm the same. I actually love the Holiday week where half the company is out traveling and the other half is just futzing. But I recognize that I (and apparently you as well :) ) am an outlier.

eigengrau5150 5y ago

If we want to free ourselves of the tyranny of work, we need to stop waiting for our masters to set us free. Freedom is not a gift to be given, but a prize to be taken. https://octoberstrike.com/ https://octoberstrike.com/ — Take October 15th off, with or without permission. Then keep taking days off until the bosses get the message. In the meantime, don't work more than 6 hours a day. If you still have to be present for 8 hours, spend the time reading or something that isn't work-related.

Proven 5y ago

Open own shop, pay the same wage as other employers but work less and let your employees work less.

koch 5y ago

Companies that are ahead of the curve: 4dayweek.io thelistofcompanies.com Personally I think a shorter week is a much more compelling competitive advantage for hiring than other benefits - give people more of their own time back.

supernova87a 5y ago

Let's be clear: what some people who advocate for this want is "we want to work less, but be paid the same or greater". I'm simply amazed that you can read any such article/essay and not see a single $ sign in the entire thing. It's like asking your child whether we should buy a bigger house. "Yes! That would be great!" Should the government offer more benefits? "Yes! I love the idea!" Um, we're missing a certain part of the question, don't you think?

toomuchtodo 5y ago
Yes, this is what’s being asked for. No, with enormous increases in productivity that has been realized over decades, it doesn’t seem unreasonable. Otherwise, all of these productivity gains are being funneled to the top capital owners while everyone keeps slaving away for five workdays per week. The wealth and productivity already exists to enables such a reduction in weekly work hours. It hasn’t been addressed yet because of inertia. https://www.oecd.org/economy/decoupling-of-wages-from-productivity/ https://www.oecd.org/economy/decoupling-of-wages-from-produc...
- supernova87a 5y ago
  Getting paid more because your labor has become more productive isn't how (in large part) wages are set in a capitalist/market system. They are set by how many people are willing to supply labor at a given price, and how much is demanded. And basically, how much the next guy is willing to get paid. Up until very recently, we had a surplus of labor in this country and therefore many jobs were stagnant in wage growth. That's not going to change until the fundamental force of numbers changes, or some other change comes around. (see, pandemic) You don't get paid more just because you use a piece of equipment that churns through 2x as much. Unless that machine costs a lot of money and requires education to operate it.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    That’s what laws, labor regulation, and taxes are for. Labor markets are not pure capitalism because people > capital. We just keep ratcheting up minimum wages, and ratcheting down the work week. How quickly this occurs is a function of electorate composition turnover. We’re almost at $15/hr as a minimum wage due to market forces, which makes it easier to lock it in with statue as it’s proven it’s sustainable at scale. Of course, businesses built on labor costs that are unsustainable for workers are themselves unsustainable. Several countries are trialing 4 day work weeks, and if I recall, Iceland’s trial was so successful they’re moving forward with it permanently. That is data driven labor policy showing it’s feasible. It sounds like you support a more brutalist, pure capitalist system for labor, but that’s not what exists currently nor what is likely as the US electorate tilts further away from conservatism (older voters are most conservative, and die at a rate of ~1.8 million per year; public policy progress is a function of the death rate). (politics discussed because public policy is a core component of labor rights, citations below for all of my assertions) https://apnews.com/article/business-health-coronavirus-pandemic-minimum-wage-940a6a7530d734242c6f384b751b8033 https://apnews.com/article/business-health-coronavirus-pande... ($15 wage becoming a norm as employers struggle to fill jobs) https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/the-republican-party-has-an-older-voters-problem.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/03/the-republican-party... (The Republican Party Has an Older Voters Problem) https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2020/06/02/the-changing-composition-of-the-electorate-and-partisan-coalitions/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2020/06/02/the-changing... (The changing composition of the electorate and partisan coalitions) https://www.bbc.com/news/business-57724779 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-57724779 (Four-day week 'an overwhelming success' in Iceland; The trials led unions to renegotiate working patterns, and now 86% of Iceland's workforce have either moved to shorter hours for the same pay, or will gain the right to, the researchers said.) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/15/spain-to-launch-trial-of-four-day-working-week https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/15/spain-to-launc... (Spain to launch trial of four-day working week) https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-58403087 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-58403... (Scotland to trial a four-day week)

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

philmcp 5y ago

We 100% need a shorter week The advantages are numerous but one of the key advantages is increased productivity. A 4 day week = a 50% longer weekend. (Knowledge) workers are more productive with this extra day off meaning there is almost no drop in output from the employers perspective. From a personal perspective, I get much less work done on a Friday than on a Monday This increase in productivity has been documented in many studies and is one of the main reasons I started https://4dayweek.io https://4dayweek.io

anm89 5y ago

It takes about the 15 seconds of thinking through these laws before the holes the size of planets start to appear. What percentage of Americans work exactly 40 hour work weeks. What percentage of those jobs can be economically supported at 4/5 of the hours. The answer is surely in the millions. it's not 0. but that's much different than it being some universal. All of retail is out which is a big percentage of the 40 or 40+ hour a week hourly cohort. Maybe it makes sense specifically for government employees or something. Anyway arguing it is besides the point. it's such a poorly framed ask that there is 0 chance of it happening at scale so no need to fight it. Also, obligatory to point out that Jacobin makes Fox News look impartial. it's an absolute junk source of journalism.

rvr_ 5y ago

Here in Brazil its very common for healthcare workers to have a 12h/36h schedule. They work 12 hours and rest one and a half day, in theory. This kind of schedule was heavily pushed by unions and even coded into law. The end result is that I don't know of a single healthcare worker who doesn't have more than one job. They are working 60 hours/week...